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Unread 08-09-2021, 03:22 PM   #76
arnav
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Getting hotter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Do I understand that everything in photo #3 no longer exists?
Correct. This was the 2 x 6 raised shower + bathtub platform. In the posts above I refereed to it as "level 2." I demo'd it since as you can tell by the pics it was supported improperly by a metal stud on the side. Also, I am extending the platform a foot wider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
The one that says "2x4 flat?"
Yes. In pic #2 above you can see the exact situation:
- There is a vertical 2 x 4 across the entire 9' span/length.
- There is flat 2 x 4 underneath the vertical 2 x 4 as well but it doesn't extend through the entire length. It stops at the drain. Therefore I don't think it contributes to the structure integrity. I think they added it just to help them stucco the porch below.
That is why in pic #1 there is a red 2x4 which goes wall-to-wall and a black 2 x 4 that stops at the drain.

Thx for bearing with me...
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Unread 08-09-2021, 04:20 PM   #77
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So, photo #3 was put there only to confuse us? If so, I assure you it was not necessary. I was already confused.

And may still be. I see your 2x4 on the flat. I don't know what supports it. I see your other 2x4 oriented vertically above it, presumably supported by whatever is supporting the 2x4 on the flat. If so, and presuming the vertically oriented 2x4 is fastened at the east end by the 2x4 drawn there, I'm not seeing the problem. Well, other than the spacing of more than two feet between 2x4 supports for your subfloor. But if you've got two layers of nominal 3/4" subflooring, that's certainly not a problem, either.

Perhaps if I'd followed this thread from the beginning I'd have a better understanding of the question(s), but I haven't, so perhaps I don't.

You, being on site, can better understand your framing than those of us out here looking at drawings and photos are at a disadvantage by not actually being able to see what all is going on with the structure. What I can tell you is that you can support a floor using good quality 2x4s on 24" centers spanning 4 feet pretty comfortably. Whether that's what you've got, I honestly can't tell, but you can, eh?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 08-09-2021, 04:41 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
So, photo #3 was put there only to confuse us? If so, I assure you it was not necessary. I was already confused.
Ha!. Apologies. I wanted to make sure it is clear that there are two "levels" here. One supported by 2 x 4s, and another raised platform supported by 2 x 6s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
And may still be. I see your 2x4 on the flat. I don't know what supports it.
Since it doesn't span the entire length I think we should assume nothing. I am assuming it is nailed to the vertical 2 x 4 to help them stucco.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
I see your other 2x4 oriented vertically above it, presumably supported by whatever is supporting the 2x4 on the flat.
I don't think so. The vertical 2 x 4 is nailed to the perimeter 2 x 4s and the flat one is nailed to the vertical one. There is nothing below the flat one except stucco for a porch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
If so, and presuming the vertically oriented 2x4 is fastened at the east end by the 2x4 drawn there, I'm not seeing the problem. Well, other than the spacing of more than two feet between 2x4 supports for your subfloor. But if you've got two layers of nominal 3/4" subflooring, that's certainly not a problem, either.
Great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
What I can tell you is that you can support a floor using good quality 2x4s on 24" centers spanning 4 feet pretty comfortably. Whether that's what you've got, I honestly can't tell, but you can, eh?
Bingo! That is what I wanted to confirm. I am used to trusses. I wasn't sure if 2x4s on 24" OC spanning 4 feet is acceptable. Sound like it is, which is awesome. That is indeed what I have, 2 x 4s in the perimeters fastened to concrete and another one in the center.

many many thanks. I know this was painful. I appreciate it!

With that behind us, onto water proofing.

I am assuming that I can use 6 mil poly and treat the window like a niche with liquid membrane on the CBU around the window like you would for a niche.
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Unread 08-09-2021, 05:47 PM   #79
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Still confused. I see 2x4s spanning about 9 feet. If there is nothing supporting that 2x4 on the flat, what is supporting the other 2x4s? The ones spaced at more than 24" centers?
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Unread 08-09-2021, 06:26 PM   #80
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This PDF shows exactly what is happening under the 1.5" ply subfloor and underlayment. No more, no less.

There is literally just:
- Overall floor area of 110" x 51".
- 2 x 4s on the perimeter fastened to concrete.
- A single vertical 2 x 4 going from east to west through the entire 110" length in the middle. There is a flat 2 x 4 on the bottom of it but it doesn't extend the entire 110". It stops by the p-trap. I don't think there is a pored cement underneath the flat 2 x4. I think it is just stucco. I am not sure how I can find out. I can I can try and drill a small hole through it.
- There are no other 2 x 4s underneath there. Just what marked in red and that's it.
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Unread 08-09-2021, 06:55 PM   #81
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Also, here are two more pictures from underneath the sub-floor in case it helps.
Attached Images
  
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Unread 08-09-2021, 06:56 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
I wasn't sure if 2x4s on 24" OC spanning 4 feet is acceptable. Sound like it is, which is awesome. That is indeed what I have, 2 x 4s in the perimeters fastened to concrete and another one in the center.
I'm looking as closely as I can and still can't find anywhere that a 2x4 is spanning only 4 feet. Only interior 2x4 I see appears to be spanning 9 feet. That's not gonna work.

I'm still missing something?
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Unread 08-09-2021, 07:21 PM   #83
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Nope, you are not missing anything. What you saw is what I have.
That is exactly the situation. A single 2 x 4 spanning the 9' length.

Not that we should second guess the negligent builder, but I wonder if that floor was not meant to be load bearing and only to hold the PVC pipes? If you remember pic #3, the Shower and bathtub were built on top of a ramp of 2 x 6s which had been built correctly would have been load bearing.

Anyhow, now that you finally understand what I got here...

1. Since it is not going to work, I'll pull the subfloor and underlayment so we will be able to see better the situation anyway.

2. Not to disturb the stucco, can I add two perpendicular 2 x 4s to each side of the vertical 2 x 4 every 16" or does it need to be a single continuous 2 x 4 across the 4' span?

Pls see attached pic pls.
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Unread 08-10-2021, 07:36 PM   #84
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I ripped 1/2 of the underlayment after work. The ply is rated for 24" OC,
You can see the notorious vertical 2 x 4 and the flat one which doesn't extend all the way from east to west. I'll continue ripping the rest tomorrow.

Do you see a reason why I can't drill 3/16" hole through the cement to assess the thickness? To see whether it is stucco or 8" concrete pour?
The texture of the cement is not what I would expect a poured concrete to be. Its kind of rough and ridgy but I am no concrete CSI...
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Last edited by arnav; 08-11-2021 at 10:03 PM.
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Unread 08-11-2021, 10:03 PM   #85
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I pried the rest of the sub-floor and underlayment after work.
With the price of lumber today, i think I made a costly mistake for no reason...
The cement surface totally looks like a concrete pour / ceiling vs. just stucco.
Granted, tons of water and termite damage to the sub-floor and underlayment so I am happy to start with new ones.

I took a lot of pics so you can see what I really got here.

So, looking at this, were my descriptions and annotations spot on?
  1. The vertical 2 x 4s are mostly not fastened to the wall as I expected, they are mostly just resting on the flat 2 x 4s. I am going to change that.
  2. The flat 2 x 4s are ramset'd to the concrete surface. That wouldn't have worked with stucco.
  3. I stepped on this concrete surface all afternoon and didn't fall through....

You think I should drill a 3/16" hole through the cement to assess the thickness as a next step?

Thx for the help
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Unread 08-14-2021, 10:02 PM   #86
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Latest updates.

I ended up taking out all the wood that was there.
Nothing was plumb, flat, or attached securely. What a mess. This is it. Nothing else to take out.
To make matters worst, the PVC pipe heading to the crawl space was not secure inside there, and they haven't used primer so merely cutting it in the shower area, it separated from the Tee it was connected to 10 ft away and it started leaking when someone used the lav. Made quite a mess. I ripped a bit of the ceiling on the floor below and fixed the pipe.

Onwards from here..

The cement floor is terribly not flat. 3/4" off. Ironically i know why. It looks like they built it thinking it will be a porch (since they are all stacked on top of each other on each floor).
I am much better with wood than concrete so I am just planning to shim as necessary.

Questions:
-----------------------

1. Instead of the single 2x4 east to west that was there, I am assuming I should put vertical 2 x 4s north to south every 16" yeah?

2. I am assuming I can use any combination of wood and composite shims to get the subfloor to be flat. Can I also use wooden paint stirrers if it helps?

3. In one of the side, the concrete pour is completely not plumb (see pic). Do I attach the 2 x 4 to it like that, or shim the 2 x 4 until it is plumb and then ramset it in?

4. To connect 2x4s that are perpendicular to each other, do you use 90 degree strap ties on each side?

Thx!
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Unread 08-16-2021, 07:24 PM   #87
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Is this an acceptable way to ensure the subfloor is flat?

This is just a mockup

- Not showing: felt paper anywhere wood touches concrete.
- Not showing: 90 Degrees strong ties on each side.
- The long 2 x 4s on the side will stretch the entire length.
- Note the use of the PT 5/4 (since I need exactly an 1" of thickness). Not sure what you can use instead (two 1/2" x 4"?).

Does that works? Basically any combination of 3/4" ply and composite shims...

Thanks for the help
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Unread 08-18-2021, 09:45 PM   #88
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Bump.

Before I cut a bunch of wood and pre-treat for termites, hopefully you can confirm if this an acceptable way to ensure the subfloor is flat?

This is just a mockup. Nothing is screwed down yet

Does that work? Basically any combination of 3/4" ply, other thicknesses and composite shims...

Thanks for the help
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Unread 08-18-2021, 09:57 PM   #89
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Dan, nobody here is gonna wanna tell you what you're doing is acceptable without really knowing what you're doing.

Don't know how you plan to run your drain lines if you are now framing the area with 2x4 joists running perpendicular to the drains we saw in previous photos.

I can tell you that if you use good quality 2x4 material spanning 4 feet and space your joists on 16 inch centers, you shouldn't need any of that blocking and shimming. You can probably get by with 24" spacing, truth be known. That would all depend upon those rim joists being structurally sound and capable of supporting the joists with proper fastening.

How you accomplish that is entirely up to you.

But you need a plan for the plumbing and I don't know what that might be.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 08-18-2021, 10:12 PM   #90
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Hi CX,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Don't know how you plan to run your drain lines if you are now framing the area with 2x4 joists running perpendicular to the drains we saw in previous photos.
...you need a plan for the plumbing and I don't know what that might be.
The drain lines are above the sub-floor and the shower and tub are on a raised ramp from 2 x 6. The 2 x 4s you saw above are represented by black lines in the attached pic and will be under the subfloor obviously. That's what I am re-building.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
I can tell you that if you use good quality 2x4 material spanning 4 feet and space your joists on 16 inch centers, you shouldn't need any of that blocking and shimming. You can probably get by with 24" spacing, truth be known.
Thx, that helps.

Quote:
That would all depend upon those rim joists being structurally sound and capable of supporting the joists with proper fastening.
I am planning to use this Simpson Strong tie: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-...375340#overlay together with their dedicated screws: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-...R100/202071152

Is that the correct corner braces?

EDIT: Added one more pic of what was there before, that my new 2 x 4s will be replacing.
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Last edited by arnav; 08-18-2021 at 11:01 PM.
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