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Unread 03-26-2009, 08:08 PM   #1
pooky
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float over hydronic heat

gotta float a substrate over hydronic heat for bluestone in an entry -- about
110 sq ft -- top of the tubes to finish height is about 2 3/4 inches -- 1 inch thick bluestone

tubes are in over 3/4 inch ply but there is no moisture barrier and the floor is essentially wood channels into which the tubes have been placed

thoughts:

How to apply a moisture barrier
How to get reinforcement into the mud without disturbing the tubing

what about red guard slathered over and around tubes, do the float
then use some membrane, be it protecto wrap, or noble over that
to isolate the slab alltogether?

pros? who can chime in on this one?

thanks in advance

stephen
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Unread 03-26-2009, 09:21 PM   #2
cx
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Not sure why you want a moisture barrier under the hydronics, Stephen. Maybe you could 'splain that.

You'll need to fill around the hydronics with mud, install a cleavage membrane, then a reinforced mud bed. Look at F141-07 in your TCNA Handbook for the details, eh?

Given that you have insufficient subflooring for your natural stone, and a heating system, too, I'd think it prudent to maybe install you some Ditra over the top before your tile. But it ain't required by anybody I know of.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 03-26-2009, 09:25 PM   #3
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thanks cx

I guess my response is, why put down felt under lathe when floating?

isn't that a moisture barrier?

thanks

stephen
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Unread 03-26-2009, 09:47 PM   #4
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cleavage membrane

couldn't i sub a paintable membrane as my cleavage membrane

ie redguard or some like animal

hmmmmmm?

thanks

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Unread 03-26-2009, 10:16 PM   #5
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language issue

we're talkin' the same thing I think

I – MEMBRANE CATEGORIES

LOAD BEARING, BONDED, CRACK ISOLATION MEMBRANES: (ANSI A118.12*)
Membrane strips are bonded to the substrate and are specifically designed to cover existing shrinkage cracks in the substrate per TCA F125. The membrane strips must cover three times the width of the floor tile used, with a minimum width of 6 inches. Check with the membrane manufacturer for the maximum crack width that is covered by their membrane warranty and any limitations. These types of membranes can also be used as “anti-fracture” membranes when they are applied to the entire surface of the substrate.

LOAD BEARING, BONDED, ANTI-FRACTURE MEMBRANES: (ANSI A118.12*)
This membrane is bonded to the substrate. It is only considered “anti-fracture” if it completely covers the substrate per TCA F125A. This is a full coverage membrane designed to manage both existing shrinkage cracks and future ones; it also provides some protection against shrinkage, thermal and moisture expansion/contraction of the substrate.

CLEAVAGE MEMBRANES: (ANSI A-2.1.8)
This is a full coverage membrane that is not bonded to the substrate with the purpose of
separating the entire tile assembly from the substrate. This isolates both the wire-reinforced mortar bed and the tile installation from any instability in the wood or concrete substrate.

LOAD BEARING, BONDED, UNCOUPLING MEMBRANES:
This is a full coverage bonded membrane that differs from other “direct bond ‘anti-fracture’ membranes” because it is a thicker material with air cavities pressed into its surface. The patterns are designed to “keylock” the thin-set into its upper surface, while the open air cavities underneath allow for some lateral movement without losing a bond per TCA F147/F148.

LOAD BEARING, BONDED, WATERPROOF MEMBRANES: (ANSI A118.10)
This type of membrane is not covered in this Field Report. If you require a waterproof membrane, please refer to CTIOA Field Report 82-1-3 (R-2002 ‘Waterproof Membranes & Underlayments’ available on the Web at www.ctioa.org.


So, if the cleavage membrane isos the slab above the radiant tubes
wouldn't red guard work

or, should I use an actual slip sheet? I just dont see drypack bonding to dry redguard so it seems like a fine slip sheet (or "cleavage" membrane)



not only that but cleavage and slips make me randy

that's it

thanks

stephen
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Unread 03-26-2009, 10:40 PM   #6
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CLEAVAGE MEMBRANES: (ANSI A-2.1.8)
This is a full coverage membrane that is not bonded to the substrate with the purpose of
separating the entire tile assembly from the substrate. This isolates both the wire-reinforced mortar bed and the tile installation from any instability in the wood or concrete substrate.

I don't believe the paint on membranes fall into this category.
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Unread 03-26-2009, 11:10 PM   #7
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i understand the concept

and I can use felt

but my question is this:

what advantage is there to the slip sheet being separate from both
slabs-- the slab with the heat tubes and the slab with the reinforcement

as long as the upper slab is cleaved or isolated from the bottom slab with any
non-cementious cleavage membrane wouldn't that be OK?

This bring me to another paranoid thought about attaching galv. lathe with staples --Seeing as I've always done interior floats over ply or osb like this -- by stapling lathe over felt am I defeating the whole purpose of the felt?

or is there enough cleaving to be acceptable even w/ staples


please inform

stephen
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Unread 03-27-2009, 01:57 PM   #8
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the felt is a vapor barrior
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