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Unread 11-05-2007, 03:13 PM   #1
Shooter
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Illegal Immigration. Two sides to the coin.

For the benefit of some around here this is my **Disclaimer** Obviously these are not my writings and I have no intent to alter or verify any facts contained herin. I neither accept, nor deny, the accuracy of any of the statements presented as facts herin. I personally feel that Illegal Immigration needs to be applied equally across the board and not just towards any one particular group of individuals.

Having said that, I take the stance that we do indeed need tougher laws, a much more secure border and we need to start deporting illegals at a much higher rate. We are a nation of laws and I feel that we should indeed enforce those laws. I am not unrealistic about the numbers and what it would take, but without a genuine effort to address this situation, I feel we are doing our nation a great injustice. So in essence, I take Heads.

What follows are perhaps two perhaps popular beliefs about Illegal Immigration. This is meant for what I consider to be a healthy discussion on the topic of Illegal Immigration in general. Wherever the membership of this board decides to take the topic is up to them. But I would be interested in any and all opinions on the topic. Many, may already have the belief that Shooter is off his rocker, so there is no need to mention that, unless you feel it to be a necessity.

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WHAT IF 20 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS VACATED AMERICA?

By Frosty Wooldridge
October 29, 2007
NewsWithViews.com

Tina Griego, journalist for the Denver Rocky Mountain News wrote a column titled, "Mexican visitor's lament" -- 10/25/07.

She interviewed Mexican journalist Evangelina Hernandez while visiting Denver last week. Hernandez said,

"They (illegal aliens) pay rent, buy groceries, buy clothes...what happens to your country's economy if 20 million people go away?"

That's a good question – it deserves an answer. Over 80 percent of Americans demand secured borders and illegal migration stopped. But what would happen if all 20 million or more vacated America? The answers may surprise you!

In California, if 3.5 million illegal aliens moved back to Mexico, it would leave an extra $10.2 billion to spend on overloaded school systems, bankrupted hospitals and overrun prisons. It would leave highways cleaner, safer and less congested. Everyone could understand one another as English became the dominate language again.

In Colorado, 500,000 illegal migrants, plus their 300,000 kids and grand-kids – would move back "home," mostly to Mexico. That would save Coloradans an estimated $2 billion (other experts say $7 BIL) annually in taxes that pay for schooling, medical, social-services and incarceration costs. It means 12,000 gang members would vanish out of Denver alone.

Colorado would save more than $20 million in prison costs, and the terror that those 7,300 alien criminals set upon local citizens. Denver Officer Don Young and hundreds of Colorado victims would not have suffered death, accidents, rapes and other crimes by illegals.

Denver Public Schools would not suffer a 67 percent drop out/flunk out rate via thousands of illegal alien students speaking 41 different languages. At least 200,000 vehicles would vanish from our gridlocked cities in Colorado. Denver's four percent unemployment rate would vanish as our working poor would gain jobs at a living wage.
In Florida, 1.5 million illegals would return the Sunshine State back to America, the rule of law and English.
In Chicago, Illinois, 2.1 million illegals would free up hospitals, schools, prisons and highways for a safer, cleaner and more crime-free experience.

If 20 million illegal aliens returned "home" --

If 20 million illegal aliens returned "home," the U.S. economy would return to the rule of law. Employers would hire legal American citizens at a living wage. Everyone would pay their fair share of taxes because they wouldn't be working off the books. That would result in an additional $401 billion in IRS income taxes collected annually, and an equal amount for local state and city coffers.

No more push '1' for Spanish or '2' for English. No more confusion in American schools that now must content with over 100 languages that degrade the educational system for American kids. Our overcrowded schools would lose more than two million illegal alien kids at a cost of billions in ESL and free breakfasts and lunches.

We would lose 500,000 illegal criminal alien inmates at a cost of more than $1.6 billion annually. That includes 15,000 MS-13 gang members who distribute $130 billion in drugs annually would vacate our country. In cities like L.A., 20,000 members of the "18th Street Gang" would vanish from our nation. No more Mexican forgery gangs for ID theft from Americans! No more foreign rapists and child molesters!

Losing more than 20 million people would clear up our crowded highways and gridlock. Cleaner air and less drinking and driving American deaths by illegal aliens!

Drain on America's economy; taxpayers harmed, employers get rich

Over $80 billion annually wouldn't return to their home countries by cash transfers. Illegal migrants earned half that money untaxed, which further drains America's economy – which currently suffers an $8.7 trillion debt.

At least 400,000 anchor babies would not be born in our country, costing us $109 billion per year per cycle. At least 86 hospitals in California, Georgia and Florida would still be operating instead of being bankrupted out of existence because illegals pay nothing via the EMTOLA Act. Americans wouldn't suffer thousands of TB and hepatitis cases rampant in our country—brought in by illegals unscreened at our borders.

Our cities would see 20 million less people driving, polluting and grid locking our cities. It would also put the "progressives" on the horns of a dilemma; illegal aliens and their families cause 11 percent of our greenhouse gases.
TAILS
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Here is the other side of the story:-- Did you know that, in just 2004, undocumented workers illegally hired by US businesses contributed $7 billion to Social Security and $1.5 billion to Medicare? And yet, virtually none of the illegal workers will ever receive benefits back from these federal programs? Not one penny.

-- Did you know that all Social Security Administration projections and budgets include, and rely heavily on, billions in annual contributions from undocumented immigrant workers? That Social Security would have a significant solvency problem without that revenue?

-- Did you know that, in 1999 under President Bill Clinton, the US government collected $3.69 million in fines from 890 companies for employing undocumented workers....and in 2004, under President George Bush, the US collected only $188,500 from 64 companies for such illegal employment practices? And that NO fines were levied at all in pre-election 2004?

-- Did you know that when, in the 1980s and 1990s, US corporations relocated their cheap-labor, low working conditions factories from along the US-Mexico border to Asia, that unemployment in Mexico rose to about 40%? And that Mexico has no unemployment benefits for its jobless residents?

The equation explaining the whys of illegal immigration into the US is a dirty little secret that no politican seeking reelection wants to openly discuss. Both George Bush and John Kerry carefully avoided the subject during the 2004 presidential campaign.

The plain facts of the broken US immigration system are that US businesses and the US and Mexican governments all benefit handsomely from the present flow of illegal immigrants into the US.....but they refuse to reimburse local and state authorities, and taxpayers, for the related costs.

And they all conveniently allow the US citizenry to blame starving, dying immigrants for responding to the enticements to work illegally in the United States. It's an ugly, immoral situation.

Writes Pastor Robin Hoover of Humane Borders, "Our nation virtually posts two signs on its southern border: 'Help Wanted: Inquire Within' and 'Do Not Trespass.' Without the help of immigrant labor, the US economy would virtually collapse. We want and need cheap immigrant labor, but we do not want the immigrant."
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Unread 11-05-2007, 03:49 PM   #2
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Definitely a hot issue for next years election. I don't understand why Bush didn't shut down the border after 9-11. That was his golden opportunity. What we need is a realistic approach to this huge problem which is putting an incredible strain on our nations resources.
First, secure the border. Put as many national guard down there as humanly possible. As for the illegals that are already here, attempting to deport them is impossible. Lets give them a legitimate chance to become naturalized citizens. For the most part, they are good people just looking for opportunity, which does not exist in the nations they hail from.
Finally, law enforcement needs to make a concerted effort to run background checks on criminals. There have been far too many instances where illegals who committed crimes, were given the opportunity to continue to commit crimes because of lame enforcement policies in certain parts of the US.
We all need to be on the same page with this! Allowing anyone to cross our borders does not serve the best interests of this nation. So far, the only candidate who has presented a similar plan, at least that I am aware of is Mitt Romney.
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Unread 11-05-2007, 04:38 PM   #3
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It would take a million police officers, a million prison cells, a few hundred thousand buses and court houses. Call me when people want to be taxed to construct all that. These guys are here to stay, no matter what your opinion.

We have not shown the willingness to pay for the infrastructure to investigate, arrest, try, convict, and transport these people out. Guys talk tough like bar talk but so far not a single elected official has advocated removing these people and paying for the assets which such a decision must be based.

This is a non-issue, except guy talk bs in bars.
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Unread 11-05-2007, 04:58 PM   #4
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Scooter I have to disagree about costs. It wouldn't cost much if anything to get them out. If we enforced the laws they would go on their own. I saw one show where one town out west, I think in Nevada was passing laws that made it illegal to hire, transport for profit, house illegals. Turns out they were picking up and moving out on their own. Since there were no jobs and they felt the threat of being caught they left on their own.

If we went after the real problem, the companies that hire them, and really hit them they would stop hiring them. They don't hire them because no one will do the work they hire them because they pocket the taxes, SS and other benifits they would have to pay legal workers. Who can blame them if there is no penalty. I know of a person who works at a local place. She is here on a student visa and not supposed to work. She got a job anyway. She didn't supply fake documents. He knows her story. They guy takes taxes and SS out of her check, where does it go?

No jobs, they would stay where they were or imigrate through legal channels so they could work.
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Unread 11-05-2007, 05:50 PM   #5
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They are here. They have families, they own homes, they have cars. They work for cash. To enforce the laws would involve stings against employers throughout the country--thousands and thousands of federal officers, courts and yes jail time and prisons. For every 2-3 illegals there is a single employer. So you say there are 12 million illegals? Well, thats 4 million employers, 4 million federal officers, 4 million prosecutions, 4 million judges, 4 million prison cells.

Even then, cheapos will pay cash for day labor. Don't kid yourself, this is a big time expense even if you go against only the employers. We don't have the money and there is no political will to tax to get it.

And that is something that is political suicide. To criminalize the matter and go after only Americans????? This would be considered to be treason by some measure. Bear in mind that many large corporations like slaugherhouses and janitorial companies thrive on illegals and are politically well connected. Suicide, Dude, the political third rail.
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Unread 11-05-2007, 06:05 PM   #6
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<<It would take a million police officers, a million prison cells, a few hundred thousand buses and court houses. Call me when people want to be taxed to construct all that. These guys are here to stay, no matter what your opinion.>>

The national guard could handle the situation far better than its being handled now, without anybody being taxed to death. Even so, paying higher taxes to prevent another 11 million people from crossing the border, draining our health care and education systems, to just name a few, would probably be worth the cost.
As far as them being here to say, nobody said a word about deporting them.
All I said was; give them a chance for legal status and deport those who commit crimes.
If you think this a non-issue, your head must be further up your behind than I originally gave you credit for. This certainly is an issue and one that MUST be addressed.
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Unread 11-05-2007, 06:09 PM   #7
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<<They are here. They have families, they own homes, they have cars. They work for cash. To enforce the laws would involve stings against employers throughout the country--thousands and thousands of federal officers, courts and yes jail time and prisons. For every 2-3 illegals there is a single employer. So you say there are 12 million illegals? Well, thats 4 million employers, 4 million federal officers, 4 million prosecutions, 4 million judges, 4 million prison cells.>>

Yeah, I have a family too, and guess what?? We pay taxes!! Because the numbers are large, we should just ignore the problem and allow people to enter our nation illegally??? Fck the employers. They are part of the problem. I have been installing tile for 20 years and I have never once hired an illegal just so I could save a buck. Goes against my value system.
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Unread 11-05-2007, 09:51 PM   #8
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I'll call it in the air.........HEADS!!!

On second thought, we do waste an awful lot of money going after armed robbers, child molesters, rapists, and such. Wouldn't that money be better spent on government entitlement programs? We can't catch all these criminals anyway, so why bother trying at all?
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Unread 11-06-2007, 12:12 AM   #9
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Scooter I will say I agree with your point.
"And that is something that is political suicide. To criminalize the matter and go after only Americans????? This would be considered to be treason by some measure. Bear in mind that many large corporations like slaugherhouses and janitorial companies thrive on illegals and are politically well connected. Suicide, Dude, the political third rail."

It would be as far as their big money givers, not the general public. If people would get off their butts and vote we wouldn't have such losers running things.
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Unread 11-06-2007, 12:43 AM   #10
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I don't want to go into all of the nuances of the argument. I'll just say I'd like to see for myself what the result would be if we shipped them all home. Or even if the government took a half-a$$ed approach to enforcing the existing laws to make them go home on their own.

Recent irony I came across - a lady from the UK who owns a publishing business and is semi-retired had to leave her business here and return to the UK (after 10-20 years) because she does not have permanent resident status. This is a friend of a co-worker. Fortunately, she can go back to her home country for 30 days and return but it seems pretty silly that she's the one to be threatened with deportation.
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Unread 11-06-2007, 12:46 PM   #11
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My brother was a cop. A typical arrest is a full day. Travel out; cuff em, transport em, jail them, do the fingerprinting, do the paperwork. Thats 4 million times 6 hours. Thats 24 million man hours.

Do the math, guys. The National Guard are governed by the States, not the Federal Government. I doubt you could get the governors of all states to mobilize the National Guard to investigate, arrest, and transport these guys. Even if you could, where do you house these 4 million morons?

How do you get them? Check points on major freeways? Immigration Raids at every factory, school, and business? Sweeps at grocery stores? Can you imagine the man power needed for this? Thats another 24 million man hours.

They have to be held for deportation hearings. Do we happen to have 4 million spare jail cells? Nope. Are you proposing we build tent cities or house them in football stadiums? Who feeds them and their families for days or weeks while we deport them? Figure $15 a day for food, thats $60million a day.

We have to have immigration judges and courtrooms to try them. 4 million trials. Yeah right.

We have to transport them back to Mexico. 4 million air fares. Typical air fare is $400. Thats 1.6 billion or something like that. A typical bus holds about 50 people. Thats 80,000 buses. Whoose gonna pay for that?

I know of no politician, even the most heinous right wing whacko, which supports the opinions of this post. Not even Glen Beck is this removed from reality.

This post has no tether to reality.
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Unread 11-06-2007, 01:58 PM   #12
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I can't imagine running my business without Mexicans. None of my skilled labor will dig ditches, finish concrete or sweep floors, and I have not found any unskilled labor, who also happen to be Americans that will do it either.

When it comes to laborers, I have an open door policy, if they walk through the door, are somewhat clean, ready to work, have have passable ID, I hire them. The funny thing is only Mexicans seem to walk through it.
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Unread 11-06-2007, 01:59 PM   #13
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Wtf are you talking about?? I don't think any rationally thinking person on this forum wants or expects 12 million people to be deported, including myself. Its likely that roughly the same percentage of illegals are law breakers, as are American citizens, so the only ones that should be deported are the ones who are caught breaking the law.
Redo your math and you'll see that this is doable. Yeah, it cost money to deport them but it also costs money to house and feed them in a prison. As for the border, secure the areas where crossings are most frequent with fencing and national guard. Its not a perfect solution but since Bush finally came alive on this matter, the crossings have slowed down. If anyone has a better solution, I'm all ears.
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Unread 11-06-2007, 02:03 PM   #14
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You mentioned Mexicans, but you did not specify if they are here legally. If so, that is far different than if they are here illegally. I lived in Phoenix for eight years and found the Mexican people to be friendly, hard working and rich in culture and tradition. I still wouldn't hire one who entered the country illegally. It just contributes to the problem.
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Unread 11-06-2007, 02:15 PM   #15
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Key words being:

Quote:
..have have passable ID...
We all have to eat, and raise our families; I pay a fair wage for a fair day of work. As long as they have ID and SOSEC card, that is good enough for me, I don't run background checks on laborers.
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