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Unread 01-28-2020, 09:30 PM   #1
ncgoober99
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Shower bench using nobleseal TS

After 30 years I ripped out a large 6ftx5ft 2-person shower due to cosmetic reasons (dated 80's marble color). I built my own house and did framing for shower and 6'x2' bench but had a professional install all waterproofing and tile. Heavy PVC used in 6ftx3ft pan area and had separate PVC liner draped over bench and over the pan liner. The bench top and bench front had backer board nailed through the bench membrane. Entire shower was done with 1ftx1ft marble tiles and 4x4 ceramic tiles on floor.

When I ripped out dry pack floor and marble the plywood for the bench looked like the day I put it in 30 years a go. Absolutely dry as a bone. The dry pack was dry and no pooled water anywhere. BTW, I never regrouted the walls or floors or sealed the marble during those 30 years (and it ceratinly needed it for 15+ years). Only slight water damage was in plywood subfloor in front of shower (carpeted...yeah another bad 80's choice) and some moderate damage to trile 2x4 curb due to cracked tile on curb and drilling glass framing supports into curb.

So I had 3 premium tile contractors come out with high recommendations from higher end tile stores and none of them do "modern" Schluter/etc installs but rather CBU walls. Didn't push the issue since I wasn't fully cognizant of issues. IIRC most didn't even do Redguard.

So I have already booked the Tile person and is approx 2.5 weeks from the start date. The only think I know is that it's slated to be CBU with a heavy PVC in pan and I was assuming that it woud be heaavy PVC on the bench because that was what I did 30 years ago and it worked.

However, I recently was doing some due diligence on rebuilding the new shower bench (wanted it to be not as wide as the original 2ft one) and I of coarse see that essentially the only recommended methods are a Schluter solution or Redguard(or equiv) over wood+CBU and that the shower is guarenteed to fail in no time if I nail CBU over PVC like what was done last time (despite that it worked for 30 years).

BTW, this will be an all carrara marble (4"x12" tiles) shower with basketweave on floor. The bench top will be a solid slab of 3cm marble installed before the sides and rear of bench wall tile.

So to keep the project aligned with what the tile guy is used to (CBU) I noticed that Noblseal has a pretty good name on this board and I see that they have a membrane product TS that looks like it could be used to envelope the bench seat. I see many threads here and elsewhere that says it's impossible to use a membrane for a bench seat because you don't want to nail through it but nobody mentions using the TS membrane which can be thinset into place. Heck I can cover the plywood bench with some CBU if it would provide better adhersion to the TS rather than the plywood.

Is it possible for me to frame the bench in wood, thinset the TS membrane to the top and front of bench (and of coarse use the factory prefab corners) to provide the surfaces for the marble front and top.

To me, the TS membrane at approx 2$ sq/ft is a rounding error in the
total project cost. I'm hoping the tile guy will agree to just do the entire shower walls in TS if I provide him all the TS membrane. However I don't know if I want to be the guinea pig for the first TS shower he's ever done.

Okay I'm ready for the arrows.
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Unread 01-28-2020, 09:46 PM   #2
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Welcome, Lee.

Direct bonded waterproofing membrane showers have been popular, or widely used, in this country for decades now. Noble Company's NobleSeal TS is just one such membrane.

You can build your shower, including benches and niches, from wood framing material in any sizes, shapes, or configurations you like, add a covering of CBU, and cover the entire structure with the membrane of your choice. Done every day.

Despite your reported success with using PVC waterproofing membranes to create your shower receptor and nailing through said membrane on horizontal surfaces, I can assure you there are hundreds of failures of such construction reported just here on this website. Just not a good idea at all.

NobleSeal would not be my first choice for the shower you're describing, but only because of the difficulty I find in working with the membrane. There are other membranes available that are far easier to install. Absolutely nothing functionally wrong with the Noble product, I just favor the ease of use of competing membranes. I also much prefer the bonding flange drains offered by other manufacturers for use with their membranes as opposed to Noble's system using traditional clamping drains.

And despite your reported success with marble in your shower, I would also recommend you use the Advanced Search feature and enter marble shower, just those two words, ask for Titles and browse a bit. We've had far too many reported problems with that material in showers for me to ever consider such in a shower I'd build for myself.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-28-2020, 10:42 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
And despite your reported success with marble in your shower, I would also recommend you use the Advanced Search feature and enter marble shower, just those two words, ask for Titles and browse a bit. We've had far too many reported problems with that material in showers for me to ever consider such in a shower I'd build for myself.
That ship has sailed. I have 3,000 pounds of marble (Shower + 250 sqft of floor) sitting in two pallets in the garage so I'm just going to have to live with it. I do't even want to read it. Why worry be happy.

I understand the failures of nailing though the bench top but it seems that you are also implying that the standard PVC pan liner and Oatey drain can also suffer failures? I don't see why I'd want my tile guy to also take on a new drain stall procedure also.

Lastly, I'm guessing that Kerdi is the big dog is this segment and I'm guessing that I don't want my chosen tile guy to have my shower be the first Kerdi he's ever done (And I guess he'd probably refuse because he doesn't want the risk). So after all the effort I went into interviewing and figuring out the chosen contractor I'm going to have to start at ground zero and look for somebody that does Kerdi/Schluter. Sounds like a big PITA.
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Unread 01-29-2020, 09:39 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
...but it seems that you are also implying that the standard PVC pan liner and Oatey drain can also suffer failures?
Not at all. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a properly executed traditional mud/liner/mud shower receptor, Lee. The problems arise when the liner is not properly installed or when you start trying to waterproof horizontal surfaces, including the curb top, when using CBU for the walls and not fat mud. And finding someone who does full mud showers is a bit of a challenge today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
I'm guessing that Kerdi is the big dog is this segment...
While Schluter is one of the big names in direct bonded waterproofing membranes today, there are others and at least one of them, the USG Shower System membrane, is a better product and easier to install in my opinion.

Each of us who does that type of shower waterproofing had to do a first one at some point. I personally had been to Schluter's training seminar before my first Kerdi shower for hire and it's still out there and still doing just fine and is approaching voting age at this point. Not rocket science, just requires a good attention to detail. And the USG membrane makes it even easier.

And you might wanna learn to do it yourself and have even more confidence that yours is being done correctly.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-29-2020, 09:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Not at all. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a properly executed traditional mud/liner/mud shower receptor. The problems arise when the liner is not properly installed or when you start trying to waterproof horizontal surfaces, including the curb top,
Ok great. I was thinking of providing a curb prefect kit to installer for the curb. Haven't yet started to search this forum about that products usability.

Thanks for the pointer to USG. I'll check it out.
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Unread 01-29-2020, 10:27 AM   #6
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I don't care for the Kirb-Perfect product for curbs, but I know they are used and we've not had any serious complaints about them here that I can recall.

The only consideration these days for the USG membrane is that USG sold out to a private German company (Knauf) and that company no longer supports any of the USG Durock Shower System products. Some are still available on Amazon and I know Contractors Direct purchased a lot of the remaining stock of those products. We expect the products to re-emerge under a new name, but no solid information on when that might happen. Would be a shame to loose that membrane.

The only things you need in that line are the membrane and a drain assembly.
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Unread 01-29-2020, 02:28 PM   #7
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So I'm taking this info in with a fire hose and the couple marble threads I glanced at scared me enough to think that I need to go a full 48x72 shower kit because time is of the essence.
I realize that with a bench that I will need some more prefab corners and a bunch of other port protectors since the shower has two full set of controls with body jets.

My first obvious questions are
#1) if the prefab deck is only about 1.5" thick at the perimeter why the heck is the curb 6" tall? That seems crazy high.
#2) The foam core can handle the weight of a solid slab 3cm Marble threshold plus thick frameless glass??
#3) As i write #2 I'm still wondering how a foam deck withstands point loads (like somebody standing on a ladder to change a bulb). Is the deck foam or is it a rigid plastic?
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Unread 01-29-2020, 05:36 PM   #8
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0- Thanks for numbering the questions

1- An old typical height of 3 stacked tubafors with ceement over the top. You can make your curb any height you want, but generally no less than 2 inches over the height of the drain to satisfy most plumbing codes.

2- Yes, and yes

3- Depends on the manufacturer. Some want no smaller than a 2 inch tile, others allow for a smaller tile. They are made from XPS or EPS foam, and can be manufactured in a variety of densities. You'd have to check with each manufacturer.
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Unread 01-29-2020, 06:16 PM   #9
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So, I'll throw another monkey wrench into this whole thing.

Marble showers are prone to discoloration and looking "wet". Search this forum and you'll see countless threads about marble showers with dark spots. Especially common with Carrara and other white marbles.

It appears that one of the common denominators is the bonded waterproofing shower systems. aka Noble TS, aka Kerdi, aka USG durock system, aka redgard.

So my recommendation would be to scrap the marble shower. The maintenance on them is a nightmare and they are much more prone to discoloration.

However, I have a feeling that won't fly as the OP seems set on a marble shower. So, in that case, I'd do a traditional liner with mud or cbu walls.
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Unread 01-29-2020, 07:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Mountain Tile Inc
However, I have a feeling that won't fly as the OP seems set on a marble shower. So, in that case, I'd do a traditional liner with mud or cbu walls.
I'm tempted to just roll the dice and hope that the conventional CBU walls/mud floor works as good as last time. With a conventional mud floor I assume I can easily enough put a new tile on the mud pan if/when the toles get too ugly. Wifey is going to see if there is a ceramic/porcelain solution but essentially all the marble we have in hand is not returnable so if we don't use it it is essentially lost money any way.

BTW, this isn't white white white carrara. There is already a lot of grays that will be throughout the build. Here's an example.
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Unread 01-30-2020, 04:31 PM   #11
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I guess I had a mis-communication with the tile guy and it turns out that in fact the majority of the work he does is Schluter membrane. He had estimated conventional CBU for my bid originally because that was what I was talking about. He said bumping up to Schluter was a $400 adder and I said "Deal."
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Unread 02-07-2020, 02:56 PM   #12
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How do you put this brass connector together?

Got 2 bath valves made in the UK with adapters provided by manufacturer with no effective instructions.

Google/YouTube has surprisingly litttle on how hard to thread the adapter(with o ring) into the port.
To me it seemed like it just bottomed out.
Spooks me out that it is soon to be covered in tile.
I'll probably be able to have it pressurized for a week or so before it gets covered.
Anybody have guidance for proper assembly?

3/4" BSPP (parallel thread) connector with bonded o-ring to 1/2"NPT (which I then then take to 3/4" pex)
Name:  HR_adapter.jpg
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Inlet port on valve
Name:  HR_port.JPG
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It seems like it wanted to screw all the way into the port.
Name:  HR_assembled.JPG
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Unread 02-07-2020, 03:24 PM   #13
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I would expect that type of fitting to bottom out, Lee. The O ring is the seal.

Without a link to the manufacturer it'll be even more difficult for anyone here to help you find any information, eh?
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Unread 02-07-2020, 04:43 PM   #14
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The O ring mates into the recessed groove in the female part of the connector. Even though they usually don’t recommend any additional sealant in those connectors, with it being in a less than accessible spot, I’d use a single wrap of Teflon tape on the threads and a light Teflon grease smear on the O ring seat. Make sure the grease is silicon based and not an oil based grease; otherwise it will eventually deteriorate the O ring.
Things like this are why I still like soldered copper piping.
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Unread 02-07-2020, 11:08 PM   #15
ncgoober99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cx
Without a link to the manufacturer it'll be even more difficult for anyone here to help you find any information, eh?
https://cdn.usa.hudsonreed.com/pdfs/...ple_Div_HR.pdf

Lots of things ambigious with that PDF.
No text.
Ambigious as to what ends they suggest teflon wrap.
Shows no O-ring on connectors.
Shows compression like feeds and the adapter clearly isn't a compression adapter.

Thanks guys for the advice. I did put two wraps on the threads and made sure they didn't interfere with o-ring. After that I started really questioing if that was a wise idea. I'll probably take apart and add the silicone grease.
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