Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Professionals' Hangout

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 07-08-2021, 07:12 AM   #1
Jeremy Todaro
Tile Professional
 
Jeremy Todaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 32
White Marble Shower- Best Installatiom Method?

The longer I do this, the more conflicting and off the wall theories and practices I hear. From kerdi, to hydroban. Modified thinset, non modified. Heard of someone setting with epoxy and using epoxy grout. A high end store advised soaking marble in stainproof(nope, no way in hell). For a natural breathable product, it seems every effort is being made to come up with unnatural, unbreathable ways to "fix" the issues.
I'm currently leaning towards traditional floor, prepitch, liner, mudpan, mud curb. I don't wrap the curb, I run the liner halfway in the curb about a half to inch lower than the top, put a fork on the outside mud floor and curb together her then when floor is done for the inside and pack/slope the top. No wood, no glue, then usually hydroban top and sides/walls. Then,
1. Very aggressive prepitch.
2. Triton wall boards. I really like these
3. Gravel at weep holes of coarse
4. Maybe drill some additional weep holes in the threaded drain walls.
5. Maybe Kerdi walls and curb(to waterproof and use unmodified
6. Mud floor(maybe a benefit to use white portland?)
7. Set marble unmodified.
My thoughts are to let it breathe and drain as much as possible except walls where I just want minimal wicking..
__________________
Jeremy
Jeremy Todaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 07-08-2021, 07:44 AM   #2
John Bridge
Mudmeister
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Rosanky, Texas
Posts: 68,421
Send a message via AIM to John Bridge
Hi Jeremy,

If I understand you correctly I wouldn't recommend your system. Seems you've got a liner on the bottom, then another waterproof membrane on top of the mud, creating a wonderful trap for moisture. Also, I don't like not running the liner up and over the curb using curb corners.

Have no idea what a "fork" is.
John Bridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-08-2021, 08:17 AM   #3
Jeremy Todaro
Tile Professional
 
Jeremy Todaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 32
Sorry, not as concise as intended. No, I absolutely don't want waterproof on top, just the curb and walls. I want it to breathe as much as possible. *form. I form the curb and mud it all together.
__________________
Jeremy
Jeremy Todaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-08-2021, 09:07 AM   #4
Jeremy Todaro
Tile Professional
 
Jeremy Todaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 32
I don't know why these go upside down, I even edited them upside down and uploaded. Regardless of the curb though, I'm looking to reduce marble holding moisture/staining...as much as possible.
[attach]Name:  20210618_181051.jpg
Views: 175
Size:  30.1 KB[/attach]
Attached Images
 
__________________
Jeremy

Last edited by cx; 07-08-2021 at 09:57 AM. Reason: Reverse Photo
Jeremy Todaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-08-2021, 10:10 AM   #5
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 93,636
I still don't grasp how not properly waterproofing the curb is somehow going to promote correction of the problem of the marble staining or darkening or whatever it chooses to do when wetted.

And even right-side-up I'm not sure what you're showing us in your photos, Jeremy.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-08-2021, 10:54 AM   #6
Jeremy Todaro
Tile Professional
 
Jeremy Todaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 32
My liner is over 2" above finished floor all the way around, outside the finished walls and outside the glass. My curb always has waterproof membrane on front, top and inside and walls always have waterproof membrane. I don't grasp how this is not waterproof. Every inspector has been happy with it along with every builder, contractor and client for 25yrs. Not that I'm flawless, I just have a zero failure rate doing it this way.
__________________
Jeremy
Jeremy Todaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-08-2021, 11:49 AM   #7
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 93,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
My liner is over 2" above finished floor all the way around, outside the finished walls and outside the glass.
The requirement for the pan liner in a traditional shower receptor construction is that the waterproof liner extend up the walls a minimum of three inches above the shower curb, Jeremy, and with no mechanical fasteners below a level two inches above the curb. Two inches above the finished floor is not at all the same thing.

Putting a direct bonded waterproofing membrane on top of a mudded curb (I'm presuming) in a traditional receptor construction without a properly installed waterproof liner does not provide adequate waterproofing for the curb.

That your code compliance inspector may not have known that (it is a code requirement) does not make it any more correct. That your builders, contractors, or clients are also unaware, is also not helpful. I think it would really benefit you to revisit some of the standards for your shower receptor construction. I'm not picking at things that are merely of personal preference, these are things required by the plumbing code as an absolute minimum and are also required by the ceramic tile industry standards.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-08-2021, 01:29 PM   #8
Jeremy Todaro
Tile Professional
 
Jeremy Todaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 32
Not trying to buck the system, but always willing to reinvent the wheel. Now according to all the direct bonded membranes I have seen, their products are warranted for use as the pan liner to a flange receptacle. So that is absolutely sufficient in controlling water. Is there a chance for water to get over my liner in the curb, yes. Just as much as water getting over a wrapped curb. And I don't have fasteners that low, the curb height code(as I know it) is 2 inches high off shower floor for flooding concern. Ears are wide open. I do take what I do very seriously. As I was failed one time for using exterior screws in joist hangars, the engineer involved did the math and showed that the shaft of the screw had a higher sheer strength than hangar nails. The codes are very important, but sometimes they don't have to be followed verbatim. Needless to say they are also always changing. But this is still confusingly way off the topic of the water sensitivity of white marble. Are you saying my curb is causing marble to be more sensitive? And I don't know how to install a liner, so my marble looks wet? I was asking if anyone had good luck with other processes, kerdi, different sealers?
__________________
Jeremy
Jeremy Todaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-08-2021, 02:30 PM   #9
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 93,636
The curb height requirement per code is two inches above the shower drain height. The ceramic tile industry requirement is for the curb to rise two inches above the shower floor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
Now according to all the direct bonded membranes I have seen, their products are warranted for use as the pan liner to a flange receptacle.
That would be correct when used as a direct bonded waterproofing system for your receptor. When making a traditional shower receptor, it's your waterproofing liner material that must meet the requirements, including the curb.

You're correct that I've strayed from the intended direction of your thread, but we like all our discussions here on the forums to reflect the correct information to the extent possible. I'm only pointing out that by your description your receptors would not be correctly constructed according to any industry standards or building code. If you like your method and can get by using it, that's entirely up to you, of course, but as I understand what you're doing, it doesn't meet industry standards.

As for the white marble problems in showers, we see so very many of them described on these forums that we'd surely welcome any information on how to prevent such problems. Other than our usual recommendation that folks just refrain from using such stone in showers. It certainly makes a pretty shower, but the staining problem just seems to me to make it a crap shoot at best.

It does appear that the increased use of direct bonded waterproofing membranes has exacerbated the problem, but we've seen many reports of the problem developing on traditionally built shower receptor floors. Doing the entire shower in mortar is likely the best bet, but that's not really a reasonable option for our DIY visitors and not even an option for a huge and increasing percentage of the professional tile installers out there.

Most effective option, and the one we (TYW) usually recommend is the use of a porcelain look-alike in place of the actual marble tile. Not aesthetically acceptable for all customers, of course, but one that really does eliminate the oft reported problems with the light colored marbles.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-08-2021, 03:01 PM   #10
Tile & Stone Guild
King Of Tile
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Tn
Posts: 351
99% of the leaking showers I’ve ever torn out all were at the curb meet the wall intersection. You really should put pvc inside corners on top of the curb. When I was still running obviously liners I would wrap liner over the curb, put the corners in. Fold wire in shape of curb and fasten it on the outside only and mud accordingly.

I do all things schluter now, easier on the body. I like the system better as any water penetration behind the stone never goes farther than the thinset. Leaves very little to dry out.
__________________
Jeff
Tile & Stone Guild is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-08-2021, 06:32 PM   #11
Jeremy Todaro
Tile Professional
 
Jeremy Todaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 32
Talking

Ok, this is typically how my liner is placed. No low fasteners, correct damn heights. The only way I'm varying from code is to wrap over something. With a continuous waterproofing layer up and over the curb and walls, I'm perfectly OK with that. I also slope mud curbs 3/8" after the first shower I set, the glass guy refused without that. Regardless of code, I'm beyond confident that it will never be a point of failure. I know anybody doing installation should have something on the curb and walls,, weather kerdi or hydroban or ardex. I would love to see a poll of how many guys angle their 2x4 curbs towards the drain and redo schluter curbs to slope as per code.(I've never seen a shower with a flat curb that wasn't failing) And use 3x3 mesh wire in their liners while also using waterproofing admix in their mud.
I do appreciate your input CX, I've been on here a while and your always very on point giving an incredible amount of good info with your time. This forum is an invaluable resource, I owe a good portion of my career to the whole Bridge crew.Name:  20210708_185209.jpg
Views: 156
Size:  27.6 KB
Attached Images
 
__________________
Jeremy
Jeremy Todaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2021, 07:13 AM   #12
John Bridge
Mudmeister
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Rosanky, Texas
Posts: 68,421
Send a message via AIM to John Bridge
I'm sorry, Jeremy, but the liner must go up the inside, over the top all the way to the outside edge. The front of the curb is not important and doesn't need waterproofing. You system places the liner in the middle of the mud, but it does not cover to top of the curb. Then you place surface waterproofing over the curb, but it does not connect to the liner you have previously buried. That's the problem. Water can seep between the liner and the surface membrane, and it will.
John Bridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-11-2021, 07:25 AM   #13
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 33,527
White marble is crazy. Some batches/pieces will turn a darker shade and some won't. I'll post a picture below that shows 1/2 inch x 1/2 inch white marble on a shower floor. I had a limited depth for my mud bed so I used Aqua Defense and fabric over my mud (no liner). As I installed the mosaics on the floor, the sheets were all the same shade and everyone was happy. Once the shower was in use, a couple of the 12x12 sheets turned a shade darker, the rest of the floor was still just as white as it was when I installed it. I warned them about this ahead of time and they still wanted to use the white marble.

They wanted me to do something about it, I refused telling them they were warned. I let them know that I could damage the waterproofing if I try to do any repairs.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-11-2021, 09:13 AM   #14
Jeremy Todaro
Tile Professional
 
Jeremy Todaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 32
Great work, great curb. With shade variations and sheets not lining up properly more and more, I started cutting them up smaller and mixing during Install, halves, thirds, quarters. An unintended byproduct of that is hopefully if a sheet or group of tiles turns, it's somewhat broken up and blended.
__________________
Jeremy
Jeremy Todaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-11-2021, 01:06 PM   #15
tilemanct
Tile & Stone
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Northeast/Connecticut
Posts: 2,553
There is a reason tile companies are trying to mimic white marble look in porcelain tile. Been doing this biz for over 27 years and the one thing I have learned is white marble will darken, absorb water, and be a maintenance problem over the life of the shower. There is no breathable sealer that will solve the problem either. I tell every client who insists on that white marble shower all the problems they will encounter and I will not be responsible. I make sure I put it in writing and have them sign off. I document the procedure of install using TCA methods with corresponding numbers or manufacturers procedures for future reference. My favorite is when they want to use a polished marble in a steam shower. A very expensive way to make a honed material. With todays extensive collection of white marble look alike's, I would say 99% of my customers go with porcelain. I did my own shower with Porcenelosa White Marble Look and after 15 years it still looks brand new.
__________________
Dave

CTEF Certified Installer
I lost my hero on 5-21-16 You will be missed. Semper Fi
tilemanct is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
White carrarra marble / grout discoloring in new shower stall adam23 Cleaning, Restoration and Sealing 8 11-25-2012 05:51 PM
unpolished black marble shower floor turning white ... jjelly Cleaning, Restoration and Sealing 5 09-18-2012 02:48 PM
white marble tile shower celticgreenbuilder Tile Forum/Advice Board 8 04-27-2011 08:11 AM
Best grout method for sealed tumbled marble tiles? Oxi Tile Forum/Advice Board 5 07-11-2007 05:13 PM
Sealing a white marble shower alexoz Cleaning, Restoration and Sealing 13 12-22-2006 11:53 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:16 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC