Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 09-24-2022, 03:12 PM   #1
coys
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2022
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3
Entryway tile installation

Hello everyone, so glad to find this forum.

I am a new homeowner and have not done any tile before. In the entryway of my house, there is tile in place that we would like to remove and replace with a more attractive tile. My goal is to learn about tile setting by doing this, and to do our bathroom floors later. I'm very meticulous, but am currently without any experience

In the entryway in question, there is tile which abuts a wall, the front door, and two carpeted areas on the sides. (these will eventually be wood flooring, but not yet). There is an air conditioning vent in the tile field, through which I can see that the tile is laid over cement board. The cement board according to my caliper is about 0.45" thick. From the basement below, I can see that the subfloor is plywood and the cement board appears to be nailed through to it.

I'm interested in doing a Ditra installation with new square tiles. I have several questions:

1. When I remove the existing installation, I can see that I will need to demolish the tile that is there, and somehow remove the cement board. Will the cement board be bonded to the plywood below with mortar? What is the general method for removing this installation and getting the surface back to what's needed to start the Ditra installation?

2. In my house, the floors seem to move vertically more than I might like. I realize this could be an issue, but the current installation over the 1/2" cement board has stood the test of time. Will it be safe to use Ditra right over the plywood subfloor, should I put 1/4" cement board over it and then Ditra over that, or is using 1/2" cement board as an underlayment the best course of action?

3. I mentioned that the tile field will border carpet on two sides, but that this will eventually be replaced. For now, I'd like to avoid ruining the carpet with thinset or anything else. Is there a strategy for keeping the carpet in place and clean, or would it be best just to pull it back and stretch it in place again when the tile installation is complete?

Thank you! I've ordered John's book and while I'm waiting for it to arrive, I'll read this forum with gladness.
__________________
Mark
coys is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 09-24-2022, 05:03 PM   #2
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 96,047
Welcome, Mark.

1. One never really knows what that sort of demolition will require until it has at least begun. While there should be a bed of thinset mortar under the CBU panels, it's not really there for bonding, it's for support. And you'll not know what the mortar is or how well it has, in fact, bonded, until you try to remove it. The fact that it's nailed, rather than screwed, should make the removal easier.

2. That's quite concerning. Ceramic tile installations don't like movement, and they like vertical movement least of all. But I'm not quite sure just what you might mean about movement in your case. Perhaps you could explain a bit? And it would help to know some details about your floor structure, such as joist size, type, spacing, and unsupported span, along with the thickness of your subflooring.

I'm not at all sure why you want to install Ditra rather than the CBU you currently have, but if you want to do that, you would not install CBU first. All CBU manufacturers specify their thinner (usually a quarter-inch) product for floor installations, but you appear to have (guessing, based upon your measurement) Hardiebacker 500 currently. If you want your new tile installation to be the same height as your current installation, and presuming your new tile is the same thickness as your current tile, you might want to consider using the same underlayment you currently have. You could use some other brand of CBU and get an actual half-inch thickness if you need more height, or use any of the quarter-inch products if you need less height.

3. I'd favor pulling the carpet back before installing the tile. Not sure how else you'll get the carpet stretched tight to the tile installation otherwise. That presumes you intend to tuck your carpet against the new tile installation.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-24-2022, 08:36 PM   #3
Snets
Professional Weekend Warrior
 
Snets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Northern California
Posts: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
1. One never really knows what that sort of demolition will require until it has at least begun.........And you'll not know what the mortar is or how well it has, in fact, bonded, until you try to remove it.
Have not read a more true statement than this. The fact that you are measuring with calipers in my opinion validates your claim of being meticulous - Bunch of us here in that club, so welcome, again. (I was a machinist one time way back in my life and use calipers all the time in home projects, lol.)

As CX mentioned in his response to #2, have a crawl (or walk?) under that floor and take note of the floor joist dimensions, spacing (between joists), unsupported span and material of said joists. Then head over to the Deflectolator to calculate your floor deflection - that vertical movement you described. That will tell you if your floor construction is suitable for tile - The CBU or Ditra under the tile has no effect on your floor deflection.

#3) I peeled back carpet for an entryway project years ago and had a carpet guy re-stretch it back to the tile edge - worked perfectly. That tile is still there but carpet is long gone now.

Also curious how thick and what material is the subfloor between the joists and the cement board.
Snets is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-24-2022, 10:20 PM   #4
coys
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2022
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3
Thanks to you both for the input!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
2. That's quite concerning. Ceramic tile installations don't like movement, and they like vertical movement least of all. But I'm not quite sure just what you might mean about movement in your case. Perhaps you could explain a bit? And it would help to know some details about your floor structure, such as joist size, type, spacing, and unsupported span, along with the thickness of your subflooring.
I feel like the floor has a bit of vertical movement in many places in the house. Some places it's 12 feet between support of the joists, in some places it's as much as 15-16 feet. I've never owned a house before, and I'm not sure if it is typical or more than typical. It seems perhaps more than typical to me. However, the tile that is in the entryway seems to have been there for many years and has not cracked. Unfortunately I don't know of a good way to measure or codify how much vertical movement there may be.

As far as the floor construction, my house was built in 1998 and seems to be fairly standard for its day. The joists are 16" spaced, and they are 2x10s. There is 12 feet between supports in this location. The tile field is rectangular, and the joists run along the long dimension of the rectangle. The joists are double, double, single, single, double in the area where the tile exists today. I do not know the thickness of the subfloor, but it is plywood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
I'm not at all sure why you want to install Ditra rather than the CBU you currently have, but if you want to do that, you would not install CBU first. All CBU manufacturers specify their thinner (usually a quarter-inch) product for floor installations, but you appear to have (guessing, based upon your measurement) Hardiebacker 500 currently. If you want your new tile installation to be the same height as your current installation, and presuming your new tile is the same thickness as your current tile, you might want to consider using the same underlayment you currently have. You could use some other brand of CBU and get an actual half-inch thickness if you need more height, or use any of the quarter-inch products if you need less height.
Is it possible to remove the existing tile and grout, the existing mortar, and re-use the CBU that's already in place? I assumed this would not be possible, or would require so much effort that it would be easier to just install a new CBU.

My main reason for wanting to use Ditra here was to become familiar with it for a future bathroom floor that I hope to tile.

As far as the tile height goes, the existing tile actually seems too high relative to the carpet around it, and I think a 1/4" thickness of board would be better, but I wonder if the additional stiffness of the 1/2" is necessary for some reason.

Thanks very much for your help!
__________________
Mark

Last edited by coys; 09-25-2022 at 07:41 AM.
coys is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-24-2022, 10:27 PM   #5
coys
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2022
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snets
Have not read a more true statement than this. The fact that you are measuring with calipers in my opinion validates your claim of being meticulous - Bunch of us here in that club, so welcome, again. (I was a machinist one time way back in my life and use calipers all the time in home projects, lol.)

As CX mentioned in his response to #2, have a crawl (or walk?) under that floor and take note of the floor joist dimensions, spacing (between joists), unsupported span and material of said joists. Then head over to the Deflectolator to calculate your floor deflection - that vertical movement you described. That will tell you if your floor construction is suitable for tile - The CBU or Ditra under the tile has no effect on your floor deflection.

#3) I peeled back carpet for an entryway project years ago and had a carpet guy re-stretch it back to the tile edge - worked perfectly. That tile is still there but carpet is long gone now.

Also curious how thick and what material is the subfloor between the joists and the cement board.
Thank you. The deflectolator tells me that my floor is rated for ceramic tile but not for stone tile. I plan to install ceramic, so this is fine with me.

I posted some additional details about the floor's construction in the previous post. I hope this helps. I could also post some photos if they are necessary. I am not sure how I could measure the thickness of the plywood subfloor, but the other details I believe are presented.


Thanks again to you both. We are new homeowners and now also the proud parents of a newborn boy and are looking forward to making our home the best that it can be!
__________________
Mark
coys is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-25-2022, 07:34 AM   #6
ss3964spd
Moderator
 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fairfax, Va
Posts: 5,340
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
Welcome, Mark,

You might be able to determine the plywood thickness through that HVAC vent opening, or perhaps from the underside by looking for the plywood manufacturers stamps/markings.

Ideally you and Mrs. Mark will want the height of the new tile to match that of the future new wood floor. To get as close as possible I think you'll have to make some decisions now as to what type of wood floor product you intend to use. Traditional 3/4" thick wood flooring, or an engineered product that might be considerably thinner. And if engineered, don't forget about the underlayment. The thickness of the wood might well drive your tile underlayment choices and decision as well as possibly your tile decision. When calculating heights don't exclude the thickness of the mortar layer(s).
__________________
Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent, but my ability to access it is intermittent.
ss3964spd is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-25-2022, 07:49 AM   #7
pls
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Houston, TX via son
Posts: 156
Unless they did a really poor job of installing the tile I would not expect to save the CBU. I would not use 1/2in CBU unless you needed the extra height. My understanding is the CBU does not add support. Over the last 3 years I have redone 3 bathrooms. I purchased a hammer drill from Harbor Freight for about $100 and it is still going strong. I would not try to remove much tile without one. I have used Ditra but it has always been on top of brand new 1/2in plywood. It can be a bit tricking to install. You have to make sure the thinset is loose enough and it does not dry out before you lay the Ditra. I had some adhesion issues the first time I used it. Schluter makes a thinset called AllSet. It is expensive. I really like it for laying Ditra and Kerdi membrane/band but most people on this forum are fans of VersaBond. Good luck and ask lots of questions, this is a great forum.
__________________
Phil
pls is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Marble tile for the entryway? Fanatic Tile Forum/Advice Board 7 08-04-2014 04:42 PM
Entryway Tile Project octus Tile Forum/Advice Board 28 09-05-2011 06:50 PM
Entryway Re-tile Project jaseed Tile Forum/Advice Board 9 05-03-2010 07:26 AM
Entryway tile elfederale Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 03-21-2005 08:14 PM
Ceramic Tile Entryway Dave 99 Tile Forum/Advice Board 24 09-15-2001 04:24 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:54 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC