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Unread 12-12-2014, 10:00 PM   #91
T_Hulse
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That's good info, CX. I wonder, do you think the rogue copycat manufacturers Dave is dealing with and his brains-challenged nemesis inspector could argue that 50 psi is required only at 7 days, and the whole idea of UN-coupling is that at some later point it was meant to "uncouple" (debond)? But of course you're absolutely right that this demonstrates at least probably what the committee would be willing to put in a standard.

Does anyone know of a reason all flexible underlayments should not have at least 50 psi bond to the subfloor? So should it perhaps be part of the 118.12 standard (maybe it is and I missed it)?
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Unread 12-12-2014, 10:16 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX, Post 90
...a 50 psi shear bond strength in 7 days per the test method in ANSI A118.12 Section 5.1.3.
It is part of A118.12, Tom.
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Unread 12-12-2014, 11:26 PM   #93
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CX, that's under the subheading "Shear strength to ceramic tile and cement mortar", so I had read that as being above the membrane to the tile, not underneath the membrane, to the subfloor, which is what I thought Dave was talking about. Am I looking at that wrong?
I guess either way, it could easily be clarified if 118.12 were ever renamed and fine-tuned to reflect it's actual status as a standard for all flexible underlayments.
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Unread 12-12-2014, 11:36 PM   #94
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That's the whole assembly, Tom. Membrane to test blocks, tiles to membrane. It's all gotta exhibit at least 50 psi shear.
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Unread 12-12-2014, 11:49 PM   #95
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Yes, I see that now. Thanks!
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Unread 12-13-2014, 08:30 AM   #96
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Better minds than mine are at work here. Just want you all to know that I am as confused as the masses.
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Unread 12-13-2014, 03:54 PM   #97
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I am sure the uncoupling membranes deform much more than crack isolation membranes .
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Unread 12-13-2014, 04:46 PM   #98
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What do you mean by deform?
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Unread 12-13-2014, 06:09 PM   #99
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They all must deform by design. So, seems to me, deformation is a good thing in this case.
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Unread 12-13-2014, 06:43 PM   #100
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Thank-you to all the smart people commenting.

One area I prefer uncoupling membranes- We do a lot of exterior slab on grade out here. And in Maui nobody seems to put a vapor barrier under the slab for exterior lanais. So when I want a membrane I prefer Ditra or Strata Mat. It provides some measure of protection against cracking from normal substrate movement. But if I used a sheet or liquid applied CI membrane over the whole slab I would be more worried about trapping moisture in the slab. From my limited understanding Ditra or Strata Mat will allow the slab to breath. I can also install them over a new mortar bed the next day and I find them much easier to install than Noble Seal. When I use Noble Seal with thinset I am always fighting to get all the air bubbles out. The uncoupling membranes just go in easier.

And I love all those fiberglass hairs that get in your thinset when setting tile over Noble Seal And how are the fiberglass hairs that allow the thinset to bond actually adhered to the CPE? IMO they seem to rub off easy.

My only point, uncoupling membranes are a nice option to have. But I am looking forward to the day when there is an industry standard for them. Thank-you to Dave Gobis and the others trying to make this happen.

When dealing with a slab with minor stress cracking it is my opinion that if you cover the entire substrate with a uncoupling or sheet applied CI membrane the end result should be the same- no cracks in the finished tile. And every reputable manufacturer of Uncoupling or CI membranes will tell you that even with their membrane you need to follow EJ171.

Of course technically with the sheet applied or liquid applied CI membrane you can do the bandaid approach just over the cracked areas. Done correctly it may work. Or did it work just because the slab never moved that much in the first place?
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Unread 12-13-2014, 09:47 PM   #101
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I've been reading this thread in bits and pieces. Trying my best to absorb it all. I remember calling Schluter a few years back with concerns to installing over fresh slab concrete. At the time Ditra was approved by whoever I spoke to. Now, if there were no standards set how would they know it was ok to use Ditra on such an application? Not trying to stoke any fire here, honestly just curious.
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Unread 12-13-2014, 10:22 PM   #102
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They tried it out, it seemed to work, so they decided to warrant it that way. Nothing fancy, there are no standardized tests for that.
One issue with that though, is that the only reason you could possibly need a membrane over green concrete is to protect against cracks. The 118.12 kind that uncoupling membranes don't pass the test for. So you can wait a few days for a normal construction schedule or risk it with membrane not rated to do what you desire it to do.
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Unread 12-13-2014, 10:53 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton
At the time Ditra was approved by whoever I spoke to. Now, if there were no standards set how would they know it was ok to use Ditra on such an application?
Jack, it's their product, they can OK its use in any manner they see fit. The manufacturer's recommendations for their own products always trump any tile industry standards.

There was no standard for uncoupling membranes at the time you asked Schluter about installation over green concrete, just as there is no standard now. But it didn't matter then, and it doesn't matter now as far as what the manufacturer could claim. If the manufacturer says you can use the product in that application and will warrant such use, it's usable in that application.

If the published method for use of uncoupling membranes is removed from the TCNA Handbook, as I think it should be, that will have absolutely no effect upon Schluter's, or any manufacturer of similar products, ability to advocate their use or to publish recommendations for such use. It'll still be the same product and you can still use it in the same applications if you want. The product hasn't changed. It will still do whatever it is that it's always done and it'll still not do whatever it is that it's never done.

The big problem here is that today there are many companies manufacturing a Ditra-like product and they're all calling them uncoupling membranes. And they might all work. Or they might not. And we have no way of knowing one way or the other, but still we have a method for using uncoupling membranes published in the TCNA Handbook as though they were a line of products for which we had a standard and knew at least what minimum performance to expect from every one of them that claimed to meet that standard.

That Method should never have been published in the first place. It should be removed until we have a standard for those products. If we do that, there is no problem. The various manufacturers can still make the various products and market them in any way and for any purpose they like. And installers can still use them as they always have if they choose to do so. We just won't have this continual argument about them.
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Unread 12-14-2014, 07:41 AM   #104
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I will only mention the test of time. As to "uncoupling" mats of the 3D type, and without advocating one product over another, it's going to take a long time for the competition to catch up with the leader.
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Unread 12-14-2014, 07:55 AM   #105
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Everything relative to "uncoupling" in the handbook was based on Ditra which was the only player at the time. The same thing happened with cement board. Maybe 10 years after Wonderboard went in the handbook (which was on the market 10 years prior, 10+10=20) they had competitors and a standard. That has not been the case with the Uncoupling product. Personally I find some irony in the fact the harshest critics at that time now also make a similar product.

My feelings on the subject were summed up in my previous post. I am not a fan of tile installers being offered as sacrificial lambs to suit the whims of a manufacturer. However, I am also not opposed to skewering them when deserving, like the one I just looked at where the cups were nearly full of sawdust. Most of the similar products out there work well, a few do not. With no standard who is to say that a pig is not a beautiful woman or handsome man?

There was never any "test" for the green concrete recommendation. I am the one that made the motion. It was based on a long history of success in both the US and Europe and the studies done by the CTL Group (Portland Cement Institute) and presented at the meeting, twice. If failed the first time with a request for more data, and they provided more data. I have found the vapor equalization of some membranes very useful in some applications.
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