Few questions about shower build

[cx]

1. Substantial differences. Hardiebacker is a Fiber/Cement board (ASTM C1288) while Durock is a true cement board (ASTM C1325). They handle a good bit differently, as well, but both are used in most of the same applications in tile work. Only the Hardiebacker is manufacturer approved for use of the 1/4" board on wall inatallations, but the nominal 1/2" is recommended. Problem is, their 1/2" board is only about 7/16ths" thick. For Durock you must use their 1/2" board for wall applications and it is actually 1/2" thick, the same thickness as your gypsum wallboard.

2. Yes.

3. I prefer a wedge-shaped spacer of whatever brand is available.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[Kman]

Get hard plastic spacers for setting tile on the wall. The softer, rubbery ones will crush a little, and throw your lines off.

[jokertoker]

Was hoping I could jump in this thread as my question is about the dry pack as well.

I was planning on buying sand and portland cement and making my own, but everything I've been reading about says that the coarser sand is better than the fine sand. Also buying sand at hd/lowes can be hit or miss.

These are the local sand options at the box store:







premixed:





I'm thinking of just going with the Mapei 4to1, but would making my own mix be better with the given sand options? Or would it be good to just get a bag of sand and mix in 1 more part to the mapei 4to1, to make it a 5:1 mix? Or is the 4 to 1 mix good enough on its on?

[Note] Post moved here from unrelated thread.

[cx]

JW, you'll always do better asking your project questions on you project thread. Otherwise that information will be missing there and would likely be helpful.

[Davy]

JW, I've used the 4 to 1 a couple times but found it harder to work with than my home made 5 to 1. That was years ago when it was 12 bucks a bag. I refuse to pay 19 to 22 bucks these days. In my opinion, 4 to 1 is too rich for good dry pack, I'd add little sand to each bag. I'd say a half shovel.

If I need a lot of sand, I get it by the half yard but for only a shower floor, I get the Qwikrete all purpose sand from Home Depot or Lowes. It seems to have plenty of the course sand along with the fine mixed in. Yours may vary. I'd say the grit needs to vary from 1/8 and less but not pea size.

I can't say about the Pavestone sand, it might be fine.

[jokertoker]

So I've been pretty busy lately so I haven't done too much, but about ready to start the mud bed. I went with some 4to1 mapei mud pan mix. So I got a wood subfloor and all the stuff I've seen has had people use felt roofing paper to put down on the wood, but does the material actually matter? Seems like it is there just as a barrier so the wood doesn't suck out the water too fast in the mud pan cure. I just don't want to buy a roll of it as I only need a 3'x4' piece. Any other options I can use? And I'm planning on using stucco netting if I can find it as well.

2nd question.....what is the minimum depth of a mud pan? I'm planning on doing around 2 inches for my pre slope and then maybe another inch for my final slope for the drain (laticrete drain).

3rd question.......with the 4 to 1 mapei mud deck mix, would it be best to get some sand and try to make it around 5 to 1? Or is the 4 to 1 good enough, as long as I keep it the right wetness?

[Snets]

Spacers: I like the U-shaped spacers/shims. They are hard plastic and very reusable. I have a big plastic jar of both 1/16" and 1/8". In addition, a must is a good supply of the little wedges, they are your adjusters and utility spacers. Again, totally reusable. The wedges make the adjustments you will need on any tile job, they compliment the hard spacers and work right on top of the U spacers where needed for 1/64, 1/32 or whatever extra you need to keep grout lines right and keep things very level.

I don't care for the little X or cross-shaped spacers, I just find the larger U-shaped ones more useful.

[cx]

Originally Posted by JW

2nd question.....what is the minimum depth of a mud pan? I'm planning on doing around 2 inches for my pre slope and then maybe another inch for my final slope for the drain (laticrete drain).

You're talking about the Laticrete bonding flange drain, JW? And a Laticrete direct bonded waterproofing membrane?

[jadnashua]

Plastic or roofing felt on the subflooring can help prevent that from sucking moisture out of the mud. Curing cement is a chemical process...it's not the drying process. So, properly mixed mud is important...sucking away that correct amount can become an issue. The water is literally combined with the cement as it cures...it's not a catalyst, it becomes part of the cured cement. Any excess will eventually evaporate.

[jokertoker]

I have the bonding flange and I'm putting down the sheet membrane.

I haven't gotten spacers yet but the wedge types are the ones I'm looking at.

[cx]

Originally Posted by JW

2nd question.....what is the minimum depth of a mud pan? I'm planning on doing around 2 inches for my pre slope and then maybe another inch for my final slope for the drain (laticrete drain).

Originally Posted by JW

I have the bonding flange and I'm putting down the sheet membrane.

I think we've got a serious problem with the concept here, JW. With a bonding flange drain and a direct bonded waterproofing membrane, there is no pre-slope and second mortar bed. There is only a single sloped mortar bed and the bonded membrane.

Laticrete should have instructions on the installation for you. I've never used any of their membranes and can't say I've read the instructions for the sheet membrane (they didn't yet have that when I attended their training).

But the absolute minimum thickness of mortar you can use over your wood framed floor is 3/4-inch over a cleavage membrane and minimum 2.5lb. expanded metal lath. Laticrete may require thicker and I would certainly recommend thicker. An inch and a quarter at the drain flange sounds good to me.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[jokertoker]

Just looking at how the drain was set up was making me think it was for a 2 layer system bc of the upper section having the threads and being able to raise up or down a decent amount, over an inch.

So I should just set the bottom drain and slope the mortar bed with proper fall. Then put down the sheet membrane with thinset over the drain. Then do the tiles and just adjust the height, which in my case will probably be 3/8s or less (tile is 3/8s thick I believe), so the drain is slightly lower than the tiles. So that more or less is the gist of what I should do?

[jadnashua]

Most sheet membranes utilize a drain assembly specifically designed for them, as it can be hard to connect a membrane to a typical clamping drain and keep things waterproof. There are a few of choices:
- replace the clamping drain with one designed for sheet membranes (thinnest option)
- use a 'hat' adapter, look up 'divot method'
- use a conversion drain like the one Schluter has for their Kerdi installations. This has you remove the top part of the clamping drain, bolt on the adapter, and a drain body designed to seal with a sheet membrane is attached to what's left.

[cx]

JW, when Jim speaks of a "sheet membrane" he's talking about a direct bonded waterproofing membrane (ANSI A118.10), a type made to have tile bonded directly to it. The older method of shower receptor construction, the method using a clamping drain as you're describing, also uses a sheet membrane, but it's a PVC or CPE membrane and requires the second mortar bed on top of it, to which your tiles are bonded.

Very different methods and I recommend you choose one or the other and not try to mix them.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[jokertoker]

Yes the sheet membrane is by laticrete. I was chatting with a rep a while back and that is what he was referring to it as, so I stuck with it. Though I'm sure the pros might have other names for it.

Ok I'll just do the single sloped bed and then set the drain to that. I guess it having over an inch adjustment in the height was kinda throwing me off. I'm planning on talking to a laticrete rep sometime next week if I can get time during work, but is there a special way to put the bonding flange on? I've seen people say to paint it with their liquid waterproofing, which I don't have. I would set the drain in the mortar bed, then put thinset mortar down and put the sheet membrane over it and the drain. I wasn't sure if that would be enough to hold on the plastic bonding flange and was planning on getting some silicone or epoxy and putting that around the edge of the drain under the membrane to try and create good seal.

2nd question......On one shower wall, the tile will go to the corner, and then other side of the corner will be sheetrock. Is there a certain sheetrock corner bead I should use? Originally it had a metal corner bead, but now I have durock on one side. Would this same metal corner bead work or use a different one? I saw one where one side was wide and the other side wasn't as wide about half as wide(side I would put on durock). Or any other suggestion in making this corner look clean. My plan was getting a tile corner bead (not sure on proper term for it) like one made by schluter, but my real concern is cleaning up the sheet rock side.

This is what was there:




This is what I was thinking of replacing it with: