Brian's Master Bath

[bbartel78]

So I've just started demolition in my master bath and this will be my first time building a shower pan and tiling. I've read a lot of the DIY books from Black & Decker, Home Depot, and also searched forums for answers to some questions, but some remain. I have 3 main questions at the moment and I'm sure more will come as I progress.

1. This is going to be a bit of a long process working on weekends and evenings and I have no good way of getting rid of debris so I'm slowed by waiting a week for the trash guy to come before I can throw more out. I obviously cannot leave the water off this whole time. I will be replacing the shower fixtures as well. Should I tear the tile and mud wall out around the fixtures and then turn the water off and replace the valve with my new one, or do I cap off the plumbing while I'm working, or what is the recommendation there?

2. This is a concrete subfloor. How do I attach my 3 2 x 4 curb to the concrete? I was thinking of attaching the first with nails from a powder actuated fastening device, and then attaching the next two to the first, but not sure if that is a good idea or not.

3. How do I prepare the concrete for the pre-pan? I was reading another forum that said something about a slurry or thinset or something, but was very confused. I've been scanning the library and have yet to find the answer, so if it's there, if someone just has the URL to point me to, that would be great.

Thanks for putting together this great forum of knowledge and thanks in advance for any help you may be able to provide!

[cx]

Welcome, Brian.

1. If you know it's gonna take a while and you know which fixtures you're not gonna need, turn the water off and install shut-off valves in the lines you'll need to work on so you can shut those off and continue using the rest of the house. Later you can either take those valves out or, if you were clever and put them in accessible locations, just install your new plumbing and have handy shut-off valves for later use.

For trash, I've not used this method, but places like Homer's apparently have very large fabric bags you take home (after giving them dinero), fill up, and then they come take'em away. We're talking major large bags here that will handle your shower debris and the like. Maybe others will stop by with more details.

If one of the books you've been consulting is Homer's Tiling 1,2,3 (or similar), please, please, make that your first deposit into that trash bag. The other book I'm not familiar with.

2. That's an acceptable method if you have the tool. Or you can do the same using Tapcon brand concrete fasteners or similar. Or you can construct your curb of CMUs instead.

3. Be sure your concrete surface will absorb water. If it will, using a slurry of pure Portland cement or thinset mortar is the correct way to bond your deck mud.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[bbartel78]

CX, thanks for your reply! For clarification on the 3rd question, so I start my mud bed while the slurry is still wet? Or while the thinset has yet to skim over? With the slurry, wouldn't all the water in ths lurry be displaced by the mud bed and then kind of mix in with my mud bed causing it to get wetter than desired?

Thanks again!

[bbartel78]

One more thing, I went back and searched the forum before asking, but it's not coming up with any results for some reason. What is a CMU? Thanks!

[Lazarus]

Set your mud bed over a WET thinset slurry. Trust this: It'll work...

[cx]

CMU is Concrete Masonry Unit, Brian, bricks, blocks, etc (even if the bricks aren't really concrete).

Yes, some water from the bonding slurry (think pancake batter) may be absorbed into the bottom layer of your deck mud, but that's part of its bonding action.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[bbartel78]

Great, thanks guys!

[bbartel78]

Ok, so I went to Depot to get some supplies tonight and took a look at the sand and they had 2 kinds. One said washed plaster sand, the other, commercial grade medium sand 30 grit. What is the recommended sand for the deck mud? Do I need to go somewhere else or will one of those work?

I thought of another question I had too. I've heard that you should caulk seam where the floor and shower meet rather than grout. Yet it seems like every shower I've seen that is tiled has grout. What are your thoughts on that?

Thanks!

[bbcamp]

The washed plaster sand would be more uniform (no pebbles), but it also may be finer than you need. The 30 grit would be OK, I think.

Lots of guys grout their shower changes in plane. It works OK a lot of times. The industry standard is to caulk, because walls move with respect to the floor, and grout will crack when that happens. If you choose to grout, nobody will come to your house to arrest you, and very likely, your dog will still love you. However, if your grout cracks you can a) remember that we told you so, and b) replace the grout with caulk.

[bbartel78]

Thanks!

[bbartel78]

So I finished demolition of my shower tonight and ran into some bumps as is to be expected I guess.

First, I found the beautiful hole seen in the picture attached around my drain. I know this is a tile forum, but wondering if anyone knows, do I just repair the drain and then fill the hole with concrete? If so, what kind of concrete and anything I have to do to get it to bond to the old concrete?

Second, in the other attached picture, it's a bit blurry, but the shower valve is on the inside of the framing. Previously the walls were mudded out to line up, but that seems like it's going to be a bit of a problem with using Hardiebacker. Any thoughts on how to handle that?

Third, shouldn't there be insulation all the way down to the floor on that outside wall? I thought I read in another post by someone else that external walls need to be handled differently as far as the vapor barrier or something, but I can't seem to find that post now. Is there something special I need to do there?

Thanks for all of your help!

[bbcamp]

There are a number of methods you can use to close up that hole, and you'll find any number of folks here that will argue the merits of each. I'll give you my opinion:

Place your p-trap, making sure you can set the riser perfectly plumb. Back fill the hole with well tamped dirt or gravel up to the bottom of the slab. Either drill the edge of the slab for dowels (four 3/8" bars should be fine) or roughen the edge of the slab to provide a "keyway" for the new concrete to lock in. Install the dowels with epoxy (if you go that route). If you intend to keep the shower floor level very low, round off the sharp edges of the hole (1/2" radius) then install the drain fitting. The flange should still be about 1" above the slab. Paint the edges of the slab with thinset, then immediately fill the hole with concrete mix, up to the bottom of the flange or top of slab, which ever is lower. The thinset will help the new concrete bond to the old slab. Place your preslope on the slab, again using thinset as a bonding agent.

[bbartel78]

Thanks Bob, sounds easy enough. So does anyone have any thoughts on that plumbing? Can I just move it back? I'd have to either remove the insulation right there or pinch it in which would obviously not make it terribly effective anyway. If I were to try to build out the walls further, I'd have to do it to the whole wall on that side of the bathroom so the shower doesn't stick out from the rest of the wall, which doesn't sound like a ton of fun.

[bbartel78]

Well, I got my plumbing taken care of. I have a friend who's a plumber, but hadn't seen him in awhile, but he ended up coming over and helping me. I've let him talk me into hotmopping and he helped me frame a bench that will be hotmopped along with the shower pan tomorrow. My question is how do I tile the bench? Do I somehow attach metal lathe and float mud up and on to the bench? I know I can't puncture the hotmop or it is no longer waterproof, so not sure how I'd attach the metal lathe to the bench.

Also, I still haven't been able to figure out how I should do the moisture barrier on the exterior wall. Any tips for that?

Thanks!

[muskymike]

Hi Brian, you can staple up 15lb felt paper or you can use 4 to 6 mil poly for the VB.