Condo Shower Leak Help

[Poisson Cru]

I’m in an upper condo of a two unit condo building in Santa Monica, California. The owner below, (which hates me and doesn’t speak to me), notified me by a third party that our shower is leaking and damaging the ceiling of her unit and that “the lack of repairs by a licensed contractor is compromising the integrity of the structure…and that I need to stop use of the shower immediately” A photo was attached showing the drain and plywood subfloor taken from an access door in this neighbors unit:

The porcelain tiled steam shower was constructed in 1994. The neighbor complained 8 months earlier of the same problem. I spent a day cleaning the tiles, and re-caulking all the corners, the curb, and the glass shower door. I didn’t hear anything from the neighbor for 8 months and assumed that all was ok. At the time I noticed that the slope on the curb was backwards, water pooled on the tile floor next to the drain flange, the 5x5 tiles have settled a small amount in regards to the drain flange, and the grout in some areas was worn. I did not inspect the weep holes to determine blockage , nor did I reseal the grout.

One of my problems is I don’t have access to the inspection door underneath, and need to have a licensed ?? to make an appointment with the neighbor to inspect and evaluate. I don’t know how bad the problem is and exactly where the problem is: If it is a problem with the curb or with the shower pan, or ??

The question I have is who do I need to employ? What type of professional should I call?
Should I first start off with a home inspector who can take photos and document the problem? Or an inspector with a infrared camera? Or should I start off with a plumber to make a leak test? Or should I contact a tile –grout expert to renew the grout, reset the tile on the curb to slope and seal, and recaulk? Or should I start off looking for a general contractor schooled in the Schluter method and do a pan replacement (and possibly $10,000 of Italian porcelain tile no longer made)?

Thanks

Malcom

[ceramictec]

Hi Malcom,

do you have a picture of your shower ?


these are sometimes very hard to get to a problem of where the leak is.
from that picture it doesn't look like a major one or more of an area would be damp and damaged. but none the less there is a leak there coming from somewhere.

you might consider have a tile installer come out and take a look at what you have, he might be able to see if it could be corrected by doing something small.

[Poisson Cru]

Hello Brian,
Attached are photos of the shower. I can attach more if you need.
Would you require the tile installer to inspect the damage below? (the neighbor would require licensed, etc., before opening her door and setting an appt) Or would you have the tile installer do the work, hope for the best, and re-use the shower after?
Thanks
Malcom

[ceramictec]

Would you require the tile installer to inspect the damage below? (the neighbor would require licensed, etc., before opening her door and setting an appt) Or would you have the tile installer do the work, hope for the best, and re-use the shower after?

I would say both, he would need to get an idea of where it is possibly coming from.
In California your tile installer I would hope have a license. I wouldn't know what else she would need.

that bench there could be a problem if it wasn't waterproofed properly and water is getting in that way. is it pitched towards the front ?

[Poisson Cru]

Hello Brian,
The bench has proper slope at the coping. Here's a photo with a level on it.
The slope of the curb is incorrect, though the curb should be watertight anyway.
From what I understand you recommend contacting a tile setter rather than a plumber or home inspector?
Will a tile setter be able (or should I ask him) to do a leak test? What should I look for in looking for a tile setter in the Los Angeles area? The tile people I know are more geared for floors than Kerdi specialists.
Thanks Malcom

[jadnashua]

You can do a leak test yourself. You need to take the cover off of the drain then either buy, rent, or borrow an inflatable drain plug, or you can use a long party balloon. It is a little tricky getting the balloon to inflate so it iseals the weepholes, but possible. If you buy a bag of them, if you don't get it right the first time, you've got a few more to practice with!

Once you have the drain plugged, fill the pan up with water until it is just below the top of the curb. Mark the water level (a piece of tape, a sharpie, or a grease pencil), then leave it overnight, or longer if you can, and see where the level is. Other than evaporation (and that would normally be pretty low unless you left it for days in the desert), it should not change the level at all.

If you don't see any leaks there, it could be a leak in the plumbing - maybe the line from the valve to the showerhead, or from the curb or bench.

[Poisson Cru]

Yes I need to do a leak test, though I don't want to flood the neighbors unit and have to deal with liabiltiy, mold, etc.
Why does the inflatable drain plug need to plug the weep holes? Isn't it just effective enough to plug the drain below the weep holes?
Thanks
Malcom

[Poisson Cru]

One question I have is that water pools on the floor in front of the drain flange. The flange is a little higher than the tiles and after a shower water sits and pools in front of the flange for days. Is this a concern? Is this because the tiles have settled or is it because the installer had one too many?
Is this very common and what do others do?

Heres a photo to explain.

thanks

[custombuilt]

No, water should not pool there-- that drain should be adjustable, but the mud bed may have it locked in place

[cx]

Welcome, Malcom. Please enter that first name in a permanent signature line so it appears in each post and we don't gotta search for it (UserCP/Edit Signature).

Originally Posted by Malcom

Why does the inflatable drain plug need to plug the weep holes? Isn't it just effective enough to plug the drain below the weep holes?

Just plug the drain. Not sure just what Jim has in mind there with trying to plug the weep holes, but maybe he'll come by and 'splain us. His responses are usually quite well reasoned and maybe I'm missing something.

Doing a flood test on a completed traditional shower floor can take a lotta time because water will soak into the mud bed for a while before the level will stabilize. You gotta let that happen

Originally Posted by Malcom

before you get an accurate test.The flange is a little higher than the tiles and after a shower water sits and pools in front of the flange for days. Is this a concern? Is this because the tiles have settled or is it because the installer had one too many?

Not possible to say from out here, having not been present for the installation. The fix, including setting the drain to the correct height, is, unfortunately, to re-do the shower floor.

I think the first thing you should do, though, is send a letter to your downstairs neighbor advising her that you plan some work on your shower and cannot be responsible for any possible damage to her apartment unless she provides you reasonable access to inspect your shower and install protective coverings during the repair work.

Might wanna send it certified with return receipt. She don't wanna let you in, don't worry what she thinks about your shower repair.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[Poisson Cru]

Hello CX and Custombuilt....concerning the drain height I wonder if the problem is not so much the drain height as it is the drain flange height? I was under the impression that this drain flange pries off and can be reset to level with silicon sealant..

You say the "fix is to redo the shower floor"....what does this mean? floor, walls, curb, and bench demod to studs with a new drain? or does redo the shower floor mean: 3 inches above floor, remove tile, thinset, to hot mop pan (this is southern california where hot mop has the market), re-slope the mortar base, have a competent hot mop service do 3 layers min of felt, and new thinset tile?

I understand the certified letter to the neighbor, but what actually does it accomplish? What damages could her unit sustain with redoing the shower floor? Does one need access to her unit to do "redo the shower floor" or is it only to visualize the current leakage?

Thanks

Malcom

[cx]

Originally Posted by Malcom

concerning the drain height I wonder if the problem is not so much the drain height as it is the drain flange height? I was under the impression that this drain flange pries off and can be reset to level with silicon sealant..

I dunno. Can't see the drain from my house. Somebody might recognize it from your picher. I don't.

Originally Posted by Malcom

You say the "fix is to redo the shower floor"....what does this mean?

Was in context of your floor depression. Take up the floor tile. Make the floor flat and properly sloped to drain. Pewt new tile.

But that does nothing about your leaking shower.

Originally Posted by Malcom

Does one need access to her unit to do "redo the shower floor" or is it only to visualize the current leakage?

Prolly only to asses the alleged damage. I'd wanna have a look so's when she claims you did something to damage her apartment you'll know what was previously there. Ain't no damage to her "unit" so far as I can see inna picher, eh?


My opinion worth price charged.

[jadnashua]

Humm, I thought to get a good leak test, you needed to block the weep holes. Probably work best if you used a plug and installed it below the weep holes; that way, if it leaked into the mudbed and the liner was bad, it would show up!

[cx]

Yeah, in this case he needs to soak the mud bed completely before his leak test is gonna yield meaningful results, Jim. Nothing wrong with plugging the weeps at the drain side, I suppose, but so long as the drain is plugged below the weeps he'll get an effective test of the whole pan, eh?

My opinion; worth price charged.

[ckl111]

If you're going to do the leak test, I would think it would be beneficial to have the neighbor below keep an eye on the ceiling when you are doing the test.

She would be in a much better position to see water right away and stop the test rather than wait a day to see if the water level drops and then guess if it's a leak, evaporation or the mud bed soaking up the water. In the mean time, her unit could be damaged since the leak test with a pan fulla water will speed up the leak.

If she doesn't want to cooperate then she will have to suffer the consequences but from my read of what you have told us, she just doesn't want "duct tape" patches from DIYers. All she knows is that 8 months ago she told you of a problem and it's still not resolved. I don't think she gives a hoot about the details.

If you explain you are working with the advice of a team of professionals, maybe she will change her tune. Her cooperation will definitely speed up the process of identifying the problem without further damage. Try not to escalate the anonymity more than necessary. It is in both your interests. It will get even more expensive if you have to deal through lawyers...

My experience with hostile neighbors, and I've dealt with a lot tearing down houses in existing neighborhoods for a living, is that if I have to talk to them or enter their properties, I try to bring someone along with me. The person can serve as a witness to the conversation and I find people can behave differently in the presence of a crowd as opposed to one on one. That doesn't preclude the existence the occasional nut job unfortunately.