Tile Tenting in 4-yrs home

[Benman]

I have experienced tile tenting in the kitchen in my four years home yesterday. After reading all the previous posts, I have following observations.

- All the perimeters appeared to be grouted, i.e no room for expansion.
- The thinset is bonded to the tile, not concrete floor.
- About 20-30% of tiles are not bonded to the concrete floor.

Anyway, what is the best way for me to fix this problem? Do I need to replace the entire floor? I read from one of the post that I can drill a hole at the grout and inject something to bond the loose tile. Does it work?

Also, can I file a lawsuit against the builder about this poor job they did, i.e without expansion joint.

Thanks

Benman

[Trask]

Benman,

Afraid you have a total loss on your hands.I believe 4 years is too long in most anyplace to get the builder/installer. Possibly if you had a really good lawyer. I would simply start over. It stinks but it's the best you can do.
Sorry...it could always be worse


Tell us a bit more about the tile..anything you know about how it was installed ect.

[John Bridge]

Hi Ben,

I wouldn't totally give up on the builder. Contact them and tell them the job was faulty from the get go. See what they say.

You can remove the tented tiles and re-install them, but chances are that other areas are going to do the same thing.

[cx]

Welcome, Benman.

I agree with Trask that it's a do-over. You could replace some tiles, but you still have the same problem you had before.

I also agree with JB that you should at least contact the builder. There's little question that it's a faulty installation if there was no movement accomodation at the perimeter of the tile installation, so there really should be no time limit on your complaint. May not get you anywhere, but it's worth a try.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[Benman]

I only know it is ceramic tiles, and I have no idea how it was installed from the builder.

If I remove all the grout from the perimeter, and re-apply the caulk around them. Is it going to work for awhile?

I will contact the builder tomorrow, but I really think the chance for success is really low.

[John Bridge]

Who knows whether removing the grout would do any good at this stage? It won't hurt anything. I can say that.

There have been cases of success with builders reported here. Don't be so pessimistic.

[Davy]

I'd pull up a few and see how clean the slab is. Thinset is designed to stick to concrete, not paint and texture. Many times the floor isn't cleaned properly before tiling.

[Trask]

I still think the total re-do is always best...but it certainly can't hurt to try replacing tiles and replace the perimeter with a soft joint. I would try to draw some line in the sand though because there may be a point of diminishing returns. If you end up pulling& replacing 20% of the tile it may end up being more labor intensive than replacing all of it. (plus then you know it's all done right.) but the real world is full of calculated comprimises so in the end you have to make the call relative to your situation.

I think the effort should be made to contact the builder. It may not go anywhere..but I think all here would agree it's worth a try...you never know.

Not long ago I replaced a shower ceiling for a guy that my dad installed in the early 80's. It was not done bad...but it's not how we'd do it today either. We did it at no cost...just because in the end it's the right thing to do. And honestly I could't buy the kind of advertising that guy will do for us as a liasion to other customers.

So it can happen that you get lucky...hold out on faith untill the guy proves you wrong.

[Benman]

Thanks for all the advice. I think I consider redoing the kitchen floor (about 10' x 24') again. I have several questions since I am not an expert in tile installation.

- What type of thinset to use for the tile and the concrete floor?
- If I need to remove the entire tiles in the kitchen, how difficult is it? With help of a rental machine, is it going to be done within a day?
- is it easier to install ceramic tile than porcelain tile?
- is it easier to do 12 x 12 tile than 18 x 18 tile?
- Do you think I can finish in 3-days?

Please advise.

[Trask]

These are sorta open ended questions

For the tear-out, over concrete especially, a small hammer/chisler with a flat spade type bit will make short work of most any tile.

Porcelian can be more difficult in the sense that it is vastly harder than most other tile & stone. It's hard stuff and so you'll likely need a good tile cutter. A wet saw is best and you'll need a porcelain blade.The density of this stuff can also make bonding a challenge, so if your direct bonding to concrete, you'll want a premium modified thinset mortar. Many good manufactures of that stuff out there..I really like Customs and Tec.

The flip side to Porcelain is it's just plain Bomber tuff. You'll have a floor that will last with very little need to worry about stains or scratches. So maintenence is minimal compared to other tile or stone. It can often be very well calibrated and square. I've worked with porcelian that was as perfect as perfect gets and while that's not always the case, it seems I've found it more often in porcelain than most ceramic.

12x12's will certainly be easier than anything larger. I like the look of larger tiles, but they are difficult to get flat. Unless I create the flat floor, or I get one of these mythical "f100 super flat" concrete floors made by a concrete god, I charge considerably more to install 18x18's. It just takes more time to get right...and sometimes it's just plain not possible with only thinset. the floor will just have too many waves and humps.

Also woth considering if you are doing larger format tiles....The saw you use may have to be larger to cut these tiles. It can be a bear to try to cut a 18x 18 tile on a saw not reall made for it.

As for the time frame...well that's where the "open-ended " part comes in Too may factors to tell really. How much "go" you have may not be the only factor. The tiles may not come out as you planned....ect

[Paul C.]

To avoid "tenting" like Benman had, does the expansion gap have to go around the entire perimeter? My bathtub installation instructions show the tile going to the edge of the tub to act as a support (to prevent sideways movement?).

Thanks,
Paul

[cx]

Shouldn't use tile to support anything, Paul. You should have a gap of at least 1/8th-inch between tile and tub, which you would then fill with caulking.

You think your tub is likely to try to leave town, screw it to the wall.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[Scooter]

For new construction, the statue of limitations is 10 years for latent (not clearly observable at the time) defects in California for homes.

This job is a tear out, although you could fool with for a while--wouldn't get worse, thats for sure.

[Benman]

I talked to one of the tile contractor today. They told me they apply normal grout to the perimeters normally, i.e no caulk. I questioned them about the expansion, and they don't seem to agree with the expansion.

Do you think this contractor does not know how to install tile?

Thanks.

Benman

[cx]

I would say that contractor is clearly and indisputably wrong about that aspect of tile installation, Benman. And that's a very basic tenet of tile and stone installation.

What else he does/does not know about installing tile I couldn't say, of course.
But I would treat all his information as suspect until proven otherwise.

My opinion; worth price charged.