Shower Project

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by mike

I said that I would not install grab bar or bench so no weight would pull tile out. However, I said I wasn't sure if the shower brackets could come loose due to sliding shower door being open/closed over time and I'll contact some shower glass installers and ask.

Grab bars or bench is not the problem. The problem is you have a heavy but brittle ceramic tile hanging on a handful of fasteners. Each of those fasteners is a stress point.

Originally Posted by mike

I would tighten screws so that as soon as they touch inside of recess of holes and therefore there would be no issue with over or under tightening.

That's not very precisely controlled.

Originally Posted by mike

Use of Ditra will not cause mashing because load will be even and I don't understand what you think would cause an uneven load? Additionally, the Ditra will not mash inward at all when backer install over it because the studs it is install on were inward, therefore, the ditra touches flush to the backer when placed over it.

That's a very complicated mental exercise for something you could have done by ripping some cheap hardboard which has none of the structural complexity. You have a screw through foam board. Foam board is not diamond rigid. So you're putting something squishy on something else squishy and squeezing them together in one spot.

Originally Posted by mike

Cardboard would be too thick for use where I installed the paint stirrers, so that's why I used them.

Cardboard shims are a little under 1/16" inches thick, just under 4 feet long, and as wide as the narrow face of a 2x4. They are designed and manufactured for the specific purpose of shimming out walls studs. They are about as thick as your paint stirrers but, unlike the stirrers, are solid and offer continuous support. They are sold at big box stores, amazon, and any decent lumber yard or builder's supply place.

Originally Posted by mike

mentioned in previous post that I considered installing 1/4" plywood on the studs and then 1/4" foam backer over it, but I think 1/4" too thin for the heavy porcelain tile.

I don't mean take sheets of 1/4" plywood or hardboard and install it over the studs to screw other stuff onto. I mean cut it into narrow strips and apply them to the studs the same way you did with the ditra to shim them out.

[Davy]

Mike, you mentioned in post 1 that you plan to fill the holes with grout after the screws are installed. Do you think that will look good? Do you think the grout will be an exact match? In my mind I see polka dot walls.

[Snets]

Mike, I love out of the box thinking, big fan of that. There is a place and time for this and it involves understanding the ground rules, the core fundamentals of the task involved; meaning, the things that have already been looked at, the things that have worked and the things that have failed. Thinking outside the box requires a true understanding of 1) the problem that you face and, 2) what issues will be faced if we choose an uncharted direction.

Humans have been setting stone and tile for centuries. Many things have been learned over the years. Portland cement was introduced in the early 1800's and scientists have been studying it in depth since then. Here in the 21st century, we have the benefit of thousands of scientific studies, research, failures, etc that have brought us to the known scientific standards that we use today to create solid, safe, waterproof tile installations per ANSI, TCNA, ASTM and on and on.

The kind folks here have tried, and are trying, to steer you to those standards so that your project will be solid, safe and waterproof.

Nothing in the thousands of years of tile setting, research and science behind what these pros do every day support your plan, despite your belief that bolting huge tiles to a wall to construct a shower will work.

IF you stop and listen, you will be guided to a successful project. If you choose to ignore every bit of information given to you, for free, with no judgement, by people who absolutely know what they are doing.....I have to ask, why even post your question?

Good luck, sir.

[Tool Guy - Kg]

Originally Posted by eagle4x

One of the responses to my posts stated he disagreed with most of what I wrote and I asked him to state why he disagreed but he did not respond.

Lots of times, the only time I can volunteer on the forum is late at night. Sorry if I'm about to cover something that's previously been answered. I don't have much time tonight and I've got a lot of typing ahead of me.

Let me emphasize that most of us have nothing against new ideas or installation methods. There are a number of industry inventions that have incubated from some of our forum members and we are proud of them. We do enjoy healthy debates around here. We all learn from doing so, as long as we don't get caught up in egos or being unfriendly or whatever. We might not have all the technical answers to your proposed installation. But we've worked with all the materials you're about to install long enough to have a pretty good idea of when you're in the danger zone. That being said, you don't have to agree with us. We aren't the tile police. You are free to ignore any of the advice above this post....or what I say below. I've seen plenty of folks come onto the forum and get upset when we don't tell them what they want to hear and they ignore our advice. Hey, they are free to do so. It is their house, their money, and their decision. We aren't driven by wanting "our way" to prevail. We aren't drive by egos. What we are driven by is genuinely wanting to help others build long-lasting, high-quality installations. We really want to help. Okay...onward....

Originally Posted by eagle4x

Hi Bubba,
What specifically do you disagree with regarding my previous post?

In an effort to answer you, I'll answer as specifically as I can. But, be warned that I get wordy here. If you don't need the responses, skip to my summary at the bottom.

Originally Posted by eagle4x

Grout is not waterproof on professional tile jobs with thinset and is not waterproof either...

There's a difference between being a tile assembly being internally damp and sopping wet. What I think you're missing here is that the high percentage of thinset mortar coverage (95% minimum coverage is the standard here) displaces a lot of the moisture's real estate to occupy in the first place. If the backs of the tiles are filled with mortar, much less moisture can occupy that space. More on why I think the quantity of moisture here matters below and in my summary at the bottom.

Originally Posted by eagle4x

...and can crack [the grout] regardless of type of installation.

With compliance to one of the many of installation methods recognized by the industry, this statement is incorrect. Let's talk about it. Grout (and many materials used in tile assemblies) has extremely high compression strength, but relatively low tensile strength. This weakness is a potential Achilles Heel that could lead to cracks. However, when a substrate is properly mesh-taped and filled with mortar in the joints, the substrate gains tensile strength. Then, the finished tile assembly that is completely bonded together and grouted becomes a strong, monolithic installation. It exhibits high strength in both both compression and tension, thereby preventing the grout from its Achilles Heel of tensile failure. It is extremely rare for grout to crack when assembled in compliance to one of the many methods recognized by the industry.

Originally Posted by eagle4x

Backer with liquid membrane will fail over time even when tile installed using thinset.

Not that it would matter with your proposed method, but what is your evidence of this statement?

Originally Posted by eagle4x

Use of thinset doesn't help increase waterproof properties of installation as it is not waterproof either.

I've covered this a few quotes up from this.

Originally Posted by eagle4x

If water does seep through the grout on installation using screws, then it will seep to the bottom of last row of tiles into the shower pan not through the wall since it's more likely to travel down than through the wall.

Yes and no. The actual answer is: That depends. First, the small gaps between your tile and substrate will allow moisture that gets through the grout to cling to the tile/substrate and accumulate. It will happily hang out behind the point of entry until it either evaporates or accumulates enough where the head pressure of the water overcomes the clingy capillary action and drives it downward. But it won't all drain away unless the gap between the tile and substrate is larger in size than the physical width of the water beads formed by surface tension.

Originally Posted by eagle4x

If I do the installation using screws, I won't put any sealant on the bottom row of tile on the outside to help ensure any water that seeps through the grout has a place to escape.

I don't think you'll be happy with a narrow gap at the bottom that will harbor mold that will be hard to clean.

Originally Posted by eagle4x

If the foam board is installed following mfg instructions it will be 100% waterproof and therefore much more waterproof than using other types of backer where a liquid membrane is applied.

Perhaps. But...
If the perm rating of the tile is lower than that of the substrate and all other variables are equal, the moisture drive of the water hanging out in the gaps between the two will be into the wall cavity.
Also, all those screw shafts are going to be pushed and pulled on every time the tiles expand and contract with exposure to hot water, then subsequent cooling. With that occurring over and over for many years to come, at least some of them are ripe for seal failure.

Originally Posted by eagle4x

...when getting quote for shower glass installation, I'll ask installer to give me a quote for drilling the holes before tile installed since installers are pros at drilling them in tile for channels and have better equipment than me.

Perhaps you'll get lucky with an installer to agree to this. But experienced installers have all caused unexpected breakage to tiles during cutting and drilling operations. Few installers would subject themselves to the liability of drilling multiple holes through $150 panels unless they were very well paid for it. Installers know that they can eat their time if they run into trouble...but we know we can't afford to eat material. Drilling through tile isn't terribly hard. But it's not without risk...especially with loose, unsupported tiles.

Originally Posted by eagle4x

However, before doing that, I'll buy 2 pcs of less expensive 24" x 48" tile and drill holes myself and install them on the shower wall to check if any problems with lippage.

Less expensive 24" x 48" tiles?

Summary: I don't believe there is any possible chance that the tiles and substrate will be so flat that they perfectly mate each other. Therefore, they will flex from leaning on them during showers and cleaning. Therefore, the low tensile strength grout is bound to crack. In addition, I think there is a danger of the tiles cracking from this same flexing. In addition, I think the screw shafts have a potential of stressing the tiles to the point of cracking. Also, I don't think there is any question that water will accumulate behind the tiles. All man-made tiles will have some stamped/embossed recesses on their backs and will make for little wet pockets, even if the tiles and substrate were absolutely "glass-flat". At a minimum, this accumulation of water will lead to unsightly efflorescence on the grout. In addition, porcelain will slowly grow from the continuous wetness behind it and may or may not lead to additional stress of wanting to buckle away from the substrate. Considering the cost of these tiles and difficult nature of installing them, I don't think the estimate you got was unreasonable at all.

[eagle4x]

@ Paul,
The tile is porcelain, not ceramic.

Great suggestion on cardboard shims...I'll get some, but expensive...HD ($60) and amazon ($40), so I'll search elsewhere for better price.

Great idea inserting plywood between the studs but a huge amount of work cutting/installing perfectly flush with studs and shimming likely required. However, I'll mark the lines on the foam board where studs are located, so not sure if benefit worth the effort installing the plywood.

@ Bubba,

Even though that I'm not convinced that water would seep into the wall cavity with my method (see FYI below), I decided to use thinset with this installation because:
1) Your and other's comments regarding potential of tile cracking.
2) Your and other's comments regarding lippage.
3) Davy's comment of polka dots because of grout not matching tile.

FYI...
From an internet search:
"Most modern, good quality, waterproof membranes should last at least 10 years". Therefore, your comments saying that my installation will cause water to seep into the wall cavity will eventually happen with installations using waterproof membranes. Water is not going to seep into the wall cavity with foam board because it's 100% waterproof.

I did a search on waterproof grouts and found some used for swimming pools.

There is nothing to trap/harbor mold at bottom of tiles if no sealant at bottom of tiles. Since water cannot seep though the foam board, the only place it can travel is down and into the shower pan.

So now that I've decided to do the installation using thinset, I previously purchased bags of Laticrete Multimax Lite for the job but I bought them about a year ago. Any problems using thinset that old (bags are unopened)?

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by eagle4x

The tile is porcelain, not ceramic.

Porcelain is a type of ceramic.

Originally Posted by eagle4x

Great suggestion on cardboard shims...I'll get some, but expensive...HD ($60) and amazon ($40), so I'll search elsewhere for better price.

You can't get expensive materials, try to install them on the cheap, and expect it to come out well. Get the right materials for what they cost. $40 for a box of shims is not that much. You'll need them when you're putting drywall on the back of those walls and they have a surprising variety of uses.

Originally Posted by eagle4x

Great idea inserting plywood between the studs but a huge amount of work cutting/installing perfectly flush with studs and shimming likely required. However, I'll mark the lines on the foam board where studs are located, so not sure if benefit worth the effort installing the plywood.

I'm not sure you followed what I was saying. Cut narrow strips of plywood or hardboard and attach them to the narrow edge of the studs like you would with the cardboard shims. They don't need to be cut to exact dimensions and they are the shims.

Originally Posted by eagle4x

So now that I've decided to do the installation using thinset, I previously purchased bags of Laticrete Multimax Lite for the job but I bought them about a year ago. Any problems using thinset that old (bags are unopened)?

Check the data sheets for shelf life. Most things like mortar say 1 year. If you aren't comfortable mixing mortar, get a fresh bag to eliminate the uncertainty.

[Kman]

There should be a date code on those bags somewhere. You may have to contact Laticrete to find out when it was manufactured, or someone on here smarter than I am may be able to tell you.

Most of them are good for a year, unopened. But I'm not sure of the life of that particular one.

And buying it a year ago doesn't mean that it's a year old. It could have sat for ten months in the retailer's warehouse before he sold it to you.

[eagle4x]

Before proceeding with using thinset for installation, here's one way I think would overcome issue of tiles possibly coming loose as some have posted in this thread that would a major problem using screws:

I tested a piece of tile on the foam backer using Flex Seal Glue and I couldn't remove it. The youtube video where someone also tested this shows it takes at least 100 PSI to pull the tile from the backer. Therefore, I'd put a bead of flex seal along the back edge of tiles where holes to be drilled and where holes for shower glass brackets, and randomly on other parts of the tile so it will press evenly on the backer. I'd use a v-notch trowel (same as for small/mosaic tiles). This should prevent the tile from coming loose from the wall due to expansion/contraction and because of pressure from the brackets on the sliding shower door to be installed. The Flex Seal Glue is too expensive for 100% coverage on backs of all 8 tiles, but I think one tube per tile (about 8 tiles total) should be sufficient and won't cost a lot of money.

The screw holes to be covered with Mapei Flexcolor CQ grout. I have a lot of buckets of it in different colors. I realize I won't be able to match the grout with the tile perfectly and will therefore the grout over the holes will be noticeable.. how that will look is one of the concerns about this project.

Regarding someones comment asking how I'd know if the screws were tighted correctly, my response is that I'd know when there's no lippage on the tiles. And as I stated before, I'd lay the tiles down on a flat surface and butt them together to help identify any bowed tiles.

[Tool Guy - Kg]

What is the benefit of using the flex seal caulk?

[tillytiles]

Mike, I suffer from a similar tendency as you in that I tend to over-engineer and over-analyze things at the expense of actually doing them.

If you go through the trouble of notch troweling flex seal over parts of the tile, why not go the one extra step and notch trowel a much cheaper and simpler material like thinset?

Besides the main concern with the screws placing undue tension/load stresses on the porcelain, I just think it will make for a very ugly and unprofessional looking installation overall. I don’t see any upsides to mechanically fastening the tiles.

If you are still inclined to use mechanical means despite the suggestions, I would try something like good sized brass or stainless binding posts or even machine screws with very carefully placed deep wood thread inserts or even low profile stand-off hardware used for mounting tempered glass. Since your assembly will likely be always wet behind the tiles, I would leave a small space (1/32”) between the tile and waterproof backer board for drainage similar to a house rain-screen siding assembly otherwise it will never dry out between showers. And leave out the grout, altogether. Oh, and don’t ever lean on those tiles!

Dry fit the entire assembly. And I’d leave the hardware heads exposed for an industrial type look.

[Tile & Stone Guild]

Using stone clips for cladding would be more advantageous across the board. No screw holes. You’ll need a plan for the outside and the gap that will be present. Still don’t think it’s the right for the application.

That said $1200 for traditional installation is not a bad price.

[eagle4x]

@ Bubba, Flex Seal is a strong as thinset, it's not messy, and doesn't take a long time to apply.

@ Benjaminn,
1) Thinset a lot more messy than Flex Seal.
2) I'm not good at mixing thinset...one tile pulled loose last time I used it. As I said, using one tube per tile will not be expensive.

There will be a small gap between the tile and the backer due to the thickness of the Flex Seal applied in different locations behind the tile. I wrote in previous post that I would not put sealant on bottom row of tiles so any water would flow down into the shower pan.

Where can I buy brass/stainless binding posts, and low profile stand-off hardware used for mounting tempered glass? If links can be posted here, would you reply with link to exact items? Would you explain more the technique using carefully placed deep wood thread inserts?

By leaving heads exposed, do you mean not recessing the holes and the heads flush with the tile, or recessing the holes but not filling them with grout after screws installed?

@ Jeff,
From online search, I assume you're referring to clips mfg by stoneclip.com? If so, the clips cost $100's for a set and the tool looks expensive as well, but maybe a using a biscuit joiner with a diamond blade would work (there's one available at HD for less than $100).

What other gaps would be present than the one between the tiles using stone clips (I plan on 1/16th" between them)?

Even though you think $1,200 ok for paying someone to install the tile, I can't afford it.

If turns out the plan for mechanical fastening not feasible, I'll cut the tiles myself and see if can find someone to mix the thinset for me and help me install them.

[eagle4x]

I was going to start a new thread with this question, but now I can't locate where to do it even though I was able to start thread for this subject:

Since I'm unsure how much the foam board will flex after all screws and shims installed, I'm considering using Permabase waterproof board (aka Permabase WP).

This product not widely available but was able to find a local tile shop that sells it.

Permabase WP is 100% waterproof and does not require a liquid membrane, therefore I'm considering using this instead of the GoBoard foam board.

You guys think better to use the Permabase waterproof board?

[ss3964spd]

It might be a bit stronger between the studs than foam board, Mike, but the seams still need to be mesh taped and mortared, creating humps, and then water proofed with a liquid roll on. Alternatively, could use a water proof membrane and mortar on the seams. Still leaves a hump but eliminates the roll on liquid membrane.

[eagle4x]

Dan,
Permabase WP board is 100% waterproof, from the mfg:

"PermaBASE WP is perfect for instances where liquid waterproofing has historically been applied over cement boards."

Therefore, no liquid membrane is required.

This is a new product, so maybe you haven't heard of it.

If I use it, I plan on using kerdi and mesh tape over the seams using the Goboard sealant. If initial application doesn't work well, then I'll remove and use mortar even though I don't like mixing it but since will be a small amount, that won't be a problem.

There are many places on my studs where there's either from 1/32" to 1/8" gaps that's going to require a lot of shimming if foam board used. If I use permabase WP will it be necessary to shim the studs perfectly plum because the Permabase is a lot more rigid than the foam board and because small gaps can be compensated when thinset is applied?

This is so frustrating because of the shimming I've done so far using cardboard, after I shim a stud it's plumb vertically using my level but not plumb when I put my level horizontally across it all the other studs on the wall...suggestions?