Shower Project

[eagle4x]

Kirk, the studs/blocking are already installed and way installed would have been done same way regardless if used thinset or not.

Also, I was rounding when I put measurements in the post:

Actual tile dimensions: 23.5" x 47.25", and walls not exactly 4' x 8' either due the curb from the prefab marble shower pan.

Good points you made...I realize holes wouldn't be drilled in center of tile as I don't have studs in center of wall...there's studs one on each end and two between them, so instead of 3 holes and top/bottom, should be 4. Also, as I mentioned in previous post, there would also be add'l screw holes:

1) 1st wall: behind plate for shower valve and shower head, and for grab bar, and for channel for shower glass.

2) 2nd wall: for towel rack and for shower bench, and for channel trim for shower glass.

[ss3964spd]

You can probably get by with using plastic push-in anchors for towel bars, but of course not for the bench or grab bars.

If the tile is bowed, and it likely will be, it won't sit flat on the wall across its entire back, there will be a void behind it. When you tighten the grab bar bracket mounting screws they will pull the panel in against the wall. You cannot just tighten the screws so the bracket just touches tile, leaving the void intact. As soon as someone puts any real weight on the grab bar it, and the brackets will tilt - pushing the bottom against the tile and then the tile against the foam board. Could easily be enough to break the tile and, depending on how it breaks, pieces of it may fall.

Same thing for the glass brackets/channel. If there is a void behind the tile, tightening those screws will try to pull the tile inward.

What if the tile is plate glass flat? If there is a hump in the wall, say from installing water proof banding on the foam board seams, the tile will ride that hump so you'd not be able to snug down the corner screws so that the tile makes contact with the wall. In essence, the corners are floating and you'd have to install adjoining tile to the same height. If it gets bumped hard enough near one of those joints, and it probably won't take much, the grout is going to crack, perhaps the tile as well.

So many pitfalls. All of which can be avoided.

[eagle4x]

Dan,

That makes sense about the grab bar and shower bench causing the tile to crack. Therefore, I may not install either.

The tile would have screws approx. 1.5" to 2" from edge and the shower glass brackets would be approx 6" further over from the edge on each wall, therefore, there the tile would not be pulled inward when screws for shower glass brackets tightened. However the door will be sliding type, so I'm not sure if opening/closing the door over time will loosen the tile...?

Regarding bowed tiles, I have 2 dozen tiles, 8 of which will be for the 2 shower walls, and remainder for tub surround (only 1 row) and on each side of the vanity. Therefore, I can lay down the tiles on a flat surface, butt them together until I find 8 of the 24 have no lippage.

Regarding possible humps in wall due to banding, the bands are very thin and will not cause humps in the tile. After backer installed, I will check the walls with my 6' level in all directions to make sure there are no gaps between backer and the level.

[Lou_MA]

This thread has got to be a troll post. Lol. But I’m enjoying the reading.

No way someone thinks mixing thinset is that difficult that they prefer the method being outlined. I could make someone mix it with a paint stick by hand and spread it with a spatula and it would still be less trouble than the proposed plan.

But as said, your house, your time, your money.

If I was retired with a spare bathroom and time to kill I could envision being curious and trying it for the hell of it. But otherwise?

No offense.

[Mathman]

I have to say I wondered the same thing Lou.

[jadnashua]

THe adage "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" comes to mind.

Centuries of tiling experience being ignored. Takes all kinds.

[eagle4x]

All,
My posts are not troll posts.

I like to think outside the box for different ways of doing things. I even tested a piece of tile attached to backer using Flex Seal (Flex Glue Waterproof Adhesive) after being submersed in water for a week and could not separate the two no matter how hard I tried. However, I did not pursue that because using Flex Seal to cover all the tiles would be very expensive. Some number of months after did the test, someone called "Tile Coach" did a youtube testing flex seal on tile.

He used a tensile strength tester, and he said, in part:

"As I was pulling the tile sample away from the substrate the hardiebacker actually broke from the substrate and broke it broke the bond from itself and it delaminated before the tile delaminated from the Flex Seal at 100 PSI, so I know the Flex Seal will be strong enough to hold up on tiled shower installation".

My point of saying this is that my out of the box thinking for using the Flex Seal instead of thinset would of worked based on the test done by Tile Coach a number of months after I tried it.

I have countered every reason given against screwing the tiles with well thought out answers. One of the responses to my posts stated he disagreed with most of what I wrote and I asked him to state why he disagreed but he did not respond.

The 2 best reasons given in my opinion for not using screws is lippage and screws pulling away from the tile when weight placed on them. Like I said, not sure if the sliding shower door will cause tile to come loose from frequent opening/closing of the door...I'll contact a shower glass installer and ask.

I've been beat up over this enough, but thanks for everyone's advice!

[Mathman]

We are not trying to beat you up but people here have an amazing amount of experience in tile trades and other trades. Trying to prevent you from wasting a lot of money if it doesn't work.

You said the studs are already in place and I quote:" The tile would have screws approx. 1.5" to 2" from edge" . So at the least you would need 4 inches of wood surface to have a safe amount of leeway to screw into the studs for the places where two tiles abut. And 5 to 6 inches of wood for the 2 inch from edge option.
I am calculating based on the screws for abutting tiles to be about 4 inches apart and giving a 1/2 to 1 inch past that so that the screw is somewhat centered in the wood. So, you would need at least two studs with possible separation between them and most likely three studs connected together at each juncture where two tiles meet.
Plus the extra studs for the center of the tile. One stud at 16 inches just will not work. Can you show us a picture of the studs you have installed.

[Davy]

Mike, like Kirk said, no one is trying to beat you up. It just seems like you're going to a lot of trouble to avoid mixing thinset.

I've heard John Bridge say more than once to stop trying to reinvent the wheel. I think that's what you're trying to do. I do hope for the best.

[eagle4x]

Kirk,
Attached are pics of the 2 shower walls and a pic of the tile to be used.

The 2 x 12 on the left is an overkill but I installed it so shower glass guy wouldn't miss when installing brackets for shower door

To the left of the wall with the shower valve, a door to the entrance of the toilet to be installed.

I used a combination of Ditra and shims to get the walls level. The guy who installed the shower pan didn't install it square and so walls couldn't be installed plumb, so I had to make a lot of adjustments to compensate for that (royal pain in the ass) but walls are perfect now.

I also adjusted the framing on wall with valve so that tile meets up to where toilet door to be installed so the tile on that wall won't have to be cut.

I realize I missed installing approx. 6" of blocking on 2nd from top row where shower head...to be installed later.

If anyone notices any problems with framing, input appreciated.

Excuse the mess

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by eagle4x

I have countered every reason given against screwing the tiles with well thought out answers. One of the responses to my posts stated he disagreed with most of what I wrote and I asked him to state why he disagreed but he did not respond.

What was your answer to point loads on the ceramic tiles being good starting points for cracks? If you way over-tighten a screw the tile will crack right away. If you get it just a little too tight, it will crack over time and at some point shatter and come down on your feet. If you leave them too loose, the tiles will dance around and keep cracking your grout.

Ditra may not be the best shim material. It will mash flat under uneven load. Hardboard or plywood would work better and be cheaper too. Are the paint stirrers taped up also shims? Cardboard drywall shims would be a lot easier.

[Mathman]

Well, you have some wood there. I think I would have just put up sheets of plywood and mounted the go-board to the plywood and then I know I wouldn't missed the stud. Would lose a couple inches of shower space i guess.
Good luck!

[eagle4x]

Paul,
I said that I would not install grab bar or bench so no weight would pull tile out. However, I said I wasn't sure if the shower brackets could come loose due to sliding shower door being open/closed over time and I'll contact some shower glass installers and ask.

I would tighten screws so that as soon as they touch inside of recess of holes and therefore there would be no issue with over or under tightening.

Use of Ditra will not cause mashing because load will be even and I don't understand what you think would cause an uneven load? Additionally, the Ditra will not mash inward at all when backer install over it because the studs it is install on were inward, therefore, the ditra touches flush to the backer when placed over it.

Cardboard would be too thick for use where I installed the paint stirrers, so that's why I used them.

I mentioned in previous post that I considered installing 1/4" plywood on the studs and then 1/4" foam backer over it, but I think 1/4" too thin for the heavy porcelain tile.

Ditra may not be the best shim material. It will mash flat under uneven load. Hardboard or plywood would work better and be cheaper too. Are the paint stirrers taped up also shims? Cardboard drywall shims would be a lot easier.

[eagle4x]

Kirk,
I just posted in reply to Paul:

I mentioned in previous post that I considered installing 1/4" plywood on the studs and then 1/4" foam backer over it, but I think 1/4" too thin for the heavy porcelain tile.

I'm not able to use 1/2" plywood and then 1/2" foam board over top of the plywood mainly because there would not be enough clearance for installing shower valve plate/handle, and for other reasons that would cause problems with installation.

And I just thought of it...because of the few comments received that because the installation would not be waterproof and water going into the wall cavity...if that was correct, then there would be even more surface area for water to collect vs using no plywood.

[eagle4x]

FYI,
Nail plates were installed in some locations behind the boards in front of the plumbing (for example, the block directly beneath the shower head).

This was done to reduce shims needed to keep studs plumb.