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Unread 12-08-2014, 08:21 PM   #76
cx
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No, the water of convenience is all the water that is not necessary for hydration, Brad.
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Originally Posted by Brad
Carothers could do an entire class on "Understanding the Chemistry of Your Tile Products", eh?
Carothers could open a whole new school for that, methinks.
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Unread 12-08-2014, 09:55 PM   #77
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Obviously, covering the glossary will be day one.
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Unread 12-08-2014, 10:54 PM   #78
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Of course without that "water of convenience" will you be able to get the mortar loose enough to get 95% coverage on those "monster tiles"?

The mortar will get plenty strong it's just that the tile won't actually stick to it
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Unread 12-09-2014, 04:03 AM   #79
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Usual mortars only consume a portion of their water and have evaporate about half that isn't consumed as part of the chemical reaction. Self-drying cements consume all their water just like you mentioned, CX. The Ardex X-77 and Liquid Backerboard that I'm using on my current job are both fully self-drying. I've also used self-drying self-levelers from both Ardex and Mapei.
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Unread 12-09-2014, 04:32 PM   #80
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My understanding is that self-leveling compounds are about 75% hydration and 25% evaporation...compared to something like concrete that is about 25% hydration and 75% evaporation. Then there are true 100% hydration cements that don't need any evaporation.
Not sure exactly where thinsets are at but I imagine to make them a full 100% hydration would also shortening the pot life considerably.

X-77 a 100% hydration thinset? im not sure about that. X-5 seems to set up faster for me..but are they full hydration or just very high hydration? Not telling just asking..
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Unread 12-10-2014, 09:15 PM   #81
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Concrete's closer to 50/50, and self-levelers vary quite a lot. X-77 is a 100% hydrating mortar (anything in their line that says "self drying"). Most of their stuff is. Makes it really nice to put waterproofing over it the next day.
I just used Ardex's new A38 screed mortar for a large mud pan. Even though it was up to 3" thick, it self-dried enough that I could put liquid 8+9 waterproofing over the next morning.
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Unread 12-11-2014, 08:47 AM   #82
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You can put 8+9 over normal mud the next day. but 3 inches is really pushing it for 8+9 over normal mud. supposed to set a bucket on the mud and check for a dark spot to determine if it is ready or not.


Im gonna check with my ardex rep on that one Tom. Im having a hard time equating 100% hydration without also having very reduced pot life. I could be wrong though...lol ..again
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Unread 12-11-2014, 09:14 AM   #83
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Just got off the phone.. He confirmed what I suspected the only products they have that are truely a full 100% are the rapid sets and floor patches and a couple others but they are all really fast setting products. He said the X-77 and other setting materials do have a limited self-drying technology as needed to work with membranes such as Ditra but are not 100%. He further said he believes that X-77 in particular is in the range of 60-65% self hydrating.

Incidentally he told me that they have a new batch of products coming out next year. one being an epoxy based mortar screed..that you can set to in a matter of hours..sounds interesting..
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Unread 12-11-2014, 09:33 AM   #84
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Interesting, a little different from what my rep told me recently. The A38 screed mortar I used is still in development, not available on the market yet. It is a rapid-set that you can set to in a few hours or less. Kinda worked like dry concrete with its mix of larger & smaller aggregates.
I'm surprised you use 8+9 the next day on normal mortar. In shower pans I've tested it is always still baking off lots of extra water the next day, way too early to call it "dry" as required by 8+9 (I also feel my normal screed mortar always needs a damp cure in shower pans).
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Unread 12-11-2014, 10:36 AM   #85
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might want to double check but 8+9 specs say 24 hours for mud. Thats one of the advantages of it. I don't think it is all that picky when it comes to a little moisture or they wouldn't say that coz next day my mud is not completely dry
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Unread 12-11-2014, 10:44 AM   #86
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An interesting discussion of unrelated products, guys, but how 'bout we try to get back to the discussion of setting TPT or other items under consideration from the committee meeting.
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Unread 12-11-2014, 11:26 AM   #87
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Well I have never work TPT,so forgive me i if i am offbase.. but it seems to me that getting a thinset that will stay wet long enough to get the tile set will also sacrifice the evaporation needed to dry under that size tile. its a can't win situation me thinks. Thats one of the reasons why I at this time have no intentions of doing TPT jobs..its just too risky.

seems to me that without new thinset technology or present technology I am unaware of that the thinset is just not going to properly dry unless we use a rapid set or something. but that causes other issues.

also you need something very flowable to get the needed transfer, again this means more water in the mix..

maybe embed the tile in Self leveling cement that has high hydration and use hardi-board and suck out the remaining moisture..im just kidding on that..btw.

really I am perplexed on this subject as it seems others are also. But perhaps a non-cement based adhesive. but finding something organic with mold resistant and with load bearing properties would be a struggle in itself. the contact cement mentioned in the minutes I don't think would be thick enough unless the substrate was perfect.

I just don't know enough about the techniques or testing that was done with these products to be of any use to this discussion..but am glad to see this thread posted here. thanks.
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Unread 12-11-2014, 11:35 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim
also you need something very flowable to get the needed transfer, again this means more water in the mix..
Not necessarily so. While it might require more liquid, that doesn't necessarily mean more water.
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Unread 12-11-2014, 12:24 PM   #89
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same amount of water with less cement?...just kidding

What else is used to make it more flowable? I mean all thinsets seem to prefer varying amounts of water in the mixes..some use alot of water yet set up rather quickly.some very little water and the stay runny.. but it seems the amount of water added is somewhat irrelevent compared to how much is used for internal hydration.

what could keep the thinset loose yet not have that "water of convenience". Are you referring to latex admix? that would defeat to purpose if so. what else is there?
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Unread 12-11-2014, 12:47 PM   #90
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I wonder where Ardex FB-9L falls on the, "self hydrating" scale, since it is designed to be mixed to a fluid consistency.
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