Done with copper pipe

[Snets]

I got tired of all the fittings and all of the time it takes to plumb a bath with copper, I dove in and purchased the Milwaukee ProPex M12 expander and plan on doing everything Pex A here forward. Still going to solder some pipes to valves for mounting purposes here and there but cannot think of any reason not to go all Pex-a from there, Any feedback? The Milwaukee tool is a piece of tool art.

[John Bridge]

I don't know about an expander, John, but I quit copper when I plumbed this house. Still have a butt load of copper fitting out in my shop. Wonder what they're worth?

PEX rules.

[jadnashua]

It's harder to make PEX look good, but the advantage of much fewer fittings is a big benefit along with the speed of installation. PEX-A's fittings are better as they have less restriction, but the ID is still smaller than the equivalently sized copper, so if you're making a human carwash, you may need a larger diameter pipe. Once the wall is covered over, it really doesn't matter much as long as you've anchored any of the ends and the runs so they can't move and hit something when the water is shut off. For that, copper stubouts are easier to anchor for your fixtures.

FWIW, mice tend to like to chew on it...something that's less common with copper.

While PEX can withstand freezing, the fittings can't, so that may be an issue, but not different than copper.

[smifwal]

I can sweat copper like really good at it but pex is so much faster and cheaper, 5years ago I decided for time and the cost on the bid that I would only sweat if specifically asked to do so. I like the PEX B because it is faster then PEX A but the benefits of the A outweigh the time it takes to do the B.

There are city's round these parts will only let you do PEX A
You will like your new tool, I have the DeWalt. Make sure you check prices between the supply house and the local box store, I thought I was getting a better deal at the supply house turns out home Depot was killing them by 35%

[Snets]

Originally Posted by jadnashua

PEX-A's fittings are better as they have less restriction, but the ID is still smaller than the equivalently sized copper, so if you're making a human carwash, you may need a larger diameter pipe.

Luckily, Jim, here in CA every shower device is limited to 1.8 GPH, AND limited to ONE 1.8 GPH device at a time per shower per CA law. Very valid point on the inside pipe size - I can't speak of my workarounds to get some additional flow

Originally Posted by John Bridge

Still have a butt load of copper fitting out in my shop. Wonder what they're worth?

Not much but even less if they have that damn barcode sticker on them!!

Originally Posted by smifwal

I can sweat copper like really good at it but pex is so much faster and cheaper

I took a lot of pride in my copper work, but it just takes soo much time - in fact, John Bridge actually published photos of some of my copper plumbing work in one of his books. But like you said, PEX is so much less time which is really all the customer cares about in the end.

Appreciate all the feedback, I'll update how my first PEX job goes. BTW, in regards to Supply House vs HD pricing, I only purchased Upornor products for this job at Supply House. I don't have enough experience to go with any different brand; I wanted to stick with the brand that the Milwaukee tool was created for.

[jadnashua]

I don't know if this is still true, but Uphonor (Wirsbo) was the only manufacturer that made all of the components of their PEX...they made the material then fabricated the tubing. That gave them full control over the whole process. Everyone else buys their raw materials.

PEX -B and -C came about because they are cheaper to make, not necessarily because they are better (IMHO, they are not). PEX-A is the only one that can recover from a kink with the right procedure (all others require you to cut out the kink and use a fitting), and has the smallest bend radius.

[cx]

They're definitely different (PEX A, B, C), Jim, and I've personally used only the Type B. I've observed plumbers using the A, and I can see advantages to the procedure, but I've also seen situations where I could crimp my Type B and they'd be hard pressed to put their A fitting in there. And, of course, vise versa. The A is supposed to tolerate hard freezing better than the B, and I have seen B break from freezing in a completely unprotected situation in single digit temperatures. No idea if the A would have survived.

I've not had any PEX-AL-PEX pipes break due to freezing, but neither Type B company for which I have tools even makes such tubing any longer. Single wall only.

As for the size reduction, I've used the PEX sizes as direct replacements for the size of copper I'd previously have used with never a complaint about flow from any customer. I was seriously concerned when we first started using the stuff, but it appears we've been oversizing our copper all these years, instead. Well, maybe not seriously oversizing, but it certainly appears I can exchange nominal size for nominal size and nobody notices.

[jadnashua]

The differences between the various PEX tubing are mostly the amount of cross-linking of the long-chain molecules and the manufacturing technique. Type -A has the most cross-links and the longest chains, which is why is it more flexible and you can use the rings to help make the seal on a fitting - more memory. It's also why -A tends to cost a little more, it's a bit more complex to make, and being more flexible helps it from failing if frozen.

[Tiger Mountain Tile Inc]

Pricing on that isn't nearly as bad as I was expecting. I was bracing for something similar to their ProPress kit.

[tilemanct]

When you add the Pro Pess (very Pricey) to it, plumbing becomes fun again. Did my whole house in Pex A. Love it!! Was always nervous with a stray spark from the torch setting something on fire.

[pitterpat]

A couple of years ago I replumbed my whole house using Pex A. I bought an expander used off of eBay; still have it ands just used it to add the plumbing for my pot filler.

[makethatkerdistick]

Pex is great, but it does have disadvantages. And so does copper. I think though that with decent treated municipal water copper’s durability is proven. A well prepped sweat joint will reliably last for decades.

My main line from the meter and into the house is Aquapex (type A). The rest is all copper. I like the mix. If the Aquapex ever fails me, I can pull in a new service line easily, as it runs in a PVC conduit. Can’t do that with copper!

Keep in mind that Uponor pipes have a class action law suit pending, mostly concerning the colored pipes in blue and red. Let that sink in! Plus, google around a bit, and you will find quite a few anecdotal reports about Aquapex springing a leak in the middle of a pipe run. It is not that uncommon.

https://www.classaction.org/news/dis...action-alleges

Just like any piping material, PEX is vulnerable to water chemistry. Plus, even if your PEX A pipe survives a hard freeze, the manufacturer considers it compromised and wants you to change that section. Personally, I wouldn’t trust any pipe that went through a freeze. It should be avoided in the first place.

Just like it was insane with copper, running PEX under a slab is a disaster waiting to happen in my view. Might take two or three decades, but I am convinced that down the line costly repairs await you. I wished a standard was developed whereby all PEX in a buried application were required to be run in large enough conduit. It would make repair and replacement down the road so much easier and affordable.

[cx]

I've always run my copper under SOG foundations, sleeved in black polyethylene pipe, Wolfgang. Doesn't help the problems we've had with below grade copper at all. I have many times pulled new copper behind failed copper in such cases, but nearly always hafta reduce the new copper by one size to make it work. And sometimes the old copper is so corroded that it parts while we're trying to pull it. Big PITA any way you look at it.

And it's been rather baffling trying to determine why it happens. In one case I have three houses in the same very rural area built in three successive years using copper from the same supplier. The first and third have by now had all the below grade copper replaced or rerouted, the second has never had an issue after more than 35 years. Go figger.

A fella certainly could run such pipes inside a PVC pipe conduit of sufficient diameter using conduit sweeps to come up into the walls and pull copper through that, but I'm not seeing that as a viable option. The only new houses I built after we abandoned copper below grade had all home-runs from a common manifold and not sleeved at all. Those were PEX B (PEX-AL-PEX, actually) of a brand no longer available. I think the oldest would be maybe 15 years or so, and so far no reports of failure.

Above grade copper in every case has been without such copper failures.

[makethatkerdistick]

Must also be a soil thing, CX. Was type K used for your buried application? Or only L? The sleeving is probably mostly for avoiding abrasive damage to the copper and for insulation of hot lines? Sometimes, the soil acts like a big battery against the copper, causing corrosion. Complex issue, and hard to predict or control.

My original copper slab plumbing performed flawlessly for almost fifty years. I abandoned it proactively, since anecdotal evidence from the neighborhood suggested that occasionally people here have leaks with costly concrete repair. I didn’t want to go there. I considered it a ticking time bomb, but fifty years of service is pretty good in my view. I want to see what an Uponor Aquapex pipe looks like five decades from now, especially in a buried application. It is plastic, alright, but no reason to believe that it is completely impervious to soil chemistry. All pipes leach over time.

[cx]

Only Type L, Wolfgang. And yes, the sleeving was primarily against physical damage to the pipes during concrete placement. I never gave any consideration to insulation for hot water pipes. The failures I've seen appeared to be from water corrosion, both from inside and outside of the pipes. Shouldn't have had anything at all to do with soil chemistry or electrolysis. But, then, it shouldn't have had anything to do with the water, either. Primarily a matter of magic, I think.

I recently saw one of my burried copper lines from propane tank to house during someone else's remodeling of one of my early houses and that line was essentially pristine. Had not been sleeved in anything and had been buried a little over 30 years. You're right, it's difficult to predict.