Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 06-26-2013, 12:30 PM   #1
ncraig
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5
203K construction debacle - to vapor barrier or not to vapor barrier

So ive been fighting with a contractor for almost 6 months now on a major home renovation. One part of the renovation was a complete remodel of the master bathroom to make an ADA compliant walk-in shower.

I found out AFTER the last tile was set and grouted that they never installed a vapor barrier behind the Durrock CBU in the shower. The argument from me is that it has to be there, or a exterior CBU membrane (kerdi, redgard).

Because the shower is complete they are refusing to fix it.
here is thier final response:
8. No vapor barrier in shower. Not a code issue. None of the manufacture’s of the products used mention the use of a vapor barrier nor is it an industry standard. Please go to USG's Website and watch the video on the installation of Durock Cement Board. It shows them installing the cement board directly to the wood studs exactly as what was done in the residence. At no time does it mention or show a vapor barrier being installed. This is the manufactures recommendation. Also The Tile Council of North America's own handbook does not specify that a vapor barrier is needed when installing these items. No work to be done.

My TCNA handbook is outdated from 2011. can anyoen provide hard references to fight this scourge?
__________________
Nick
ncraig is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 06-26-2013, 12:46 PM   #2
ddmoit
Veteran DIYer -- Schluterville Graduate
 
ddmoit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: SE Tennessee
Posts: 8,884
Welcome to the forum, Nick.

Technically, a "vapor barrier" is not required. Now a "moisture barrier" on the other hand - that's debatable.

Here is a relevant thread to look at.

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=99616
__________________
Dan - a DIYer in SE Tennessee
ddmoit is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-26-2013, 01:17 PM   #3
ncraig
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5
USG response to question

USG does not require the use of a vapor barrier behind Durock in tub/shower enclosures. But, we always defer to the local Building Codes for these installations.

Our position is that a properly installed tub/shower enclosure using Durock and all the required accessories, a quality tile job and quality grouting job will give you, in effect, a water proof membrane. However, we also recognize that there are Installers out in the field that cut corners and do not use the accessories that USG requires in order to obtain the optimum installation.


*** sounds more like a cop-out than an response.
__________________
Nick
ncraig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-26-2013, 01:23 PM   #4
ddmoit
Veteran DIYer -- Schluterville Graduate
 
ddmoit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: SE Tennessee
Posts: 8,884
It's fair to say that most of the folks here would have advised a moisture barrier in your shower's construction. It may however be the case that all manufacturer's installation instructions and applicable codes were followed. Not ideal, but it may never end up being a problem in your lifetime. Then again, it might.
__________________
Dan - a DIYer in SE Tennessee
ddmoit is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-26-2013, 01:25 PM   #5
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 92,307
Look on page 161 of your 2011 TCNA Handbook, Nick.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-26-2013, 01:26 PM   #6
dhagin
builder, anti-builder, rebuilder -- Retired Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: oahu
Posts: 13,164
That thread Dan linked to has all the info, but let me try and boil it down for you.

1- What does your contract say about it?
2- What does your local building code say about it?
3- USG does not require it. Their install & tech info is on their website.
4- Industry standards do require it. ANSI & TCNA both reference membranes either behind the backer board or on the surface. There are a number of options here, but one or the other is required.
__________________
dana

"the road to hell is paved with osb, mastic, pre-mixed latex 'grout' or 'thinset', "
dhagin is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-26-2013, 02:11 PM   #7
ncraig
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5
i don't argue with anyone of you, i would ALWAYS want a VB or MR.
the contractors "Tile guy" is claiming that its not industry standard and only an option if he feels like doing it....
Ohio building code just refers to manufacture specs and ANSI

I have read over the complete post that dan referenced. and I do have page 161 of my TCNA handbook dogeared but without some more ammo to fight this contractor with, i cant get him to redo the shower now that its done. hes refusing to as USG doesn't require it.

long story short, Dana, do you happen to know where i can find that ANSI standard?
__________________
Nick
ncraig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-26-2013, 02:34 PM   #8
dhagin
builder, anti-builder, rebuilder -- Retired Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: oahu
Posts: 13,164
You need the previous edition, 2011 ANSI A108. I'd call them and see if they have them left over.

http://webstore.ansi.org/FindStandar....#.UctPhetAj-k

or

http://www.tcnatile.com/products-and...lications.html
__________________
dana

"the road to hell is paved with osb, mastic, pre-mixed latex 'grout' or 'thinset', "
dhagin is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-27-2013, 11:07 AM   #9
Pirate
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 375
Looking at this from a different perspective, why should USG or any other cement board manufacturer care whether a vapor barrier is used? I mean, does it have any bearing on the performance or durability of their product? No! The purpose of the product is to hold tile, that's it!

So, I think your contractor using the cement board instructions for his argument is weak. Whether it is in the code or not, best building practices and common sense would say that a vapor barrier is needed in basic shower construction. But, if the use of a vapor barrier isn't in your contract, you may not have much recourse, unless it is code for your area.
__________________
Randy
Pirate is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-27-2013, 06:59 PM   #10
Tiger Mountain Tile Inc
Registered Muser
 
Tiger Mountain Tile Inc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Issaquah, Washington
Posts: 7,000
This has been hashed out before and I also speculate as to how much recourse you would have. To really have a better idea you would need to talk to an attorney.

I think your best leg to stand on, however, is in your local building codes.
Tiger Mountain Tile Inc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2013, 06:46 AM   #11
Tesara
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: deleted
Posts: 129
Nick, if the bathroom wall is waterproofed then it has a vapor barrier by design... Two layers of vapor barrier would collect moisture between them which not a good thing...

In hot climates the moisture barrier are to installed on the outside... and in cold climates on the inside
http://continuingeducation.construct...L=51&C=201&P=5


The vapor barrier issue is a difficult to resolve in bathrooms of hot climates if the bathroom has moisture barrier on external wall as well as moisture barrier due to waterproofing on the inside... but other than that where there is waterproofing on inside should be fine as moisture barrier I would guess... I am not sure about the code in your area though..
__________________
deleted
Tesara is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2013, 07:08 AM   #12
ncraig
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5
our local building code doesn't stipulate anything having to do with interior bathroom moisture barrier. as far as the shower walls, they are all interior walls inside the thermal envelope, so there is no current waterproofing on them.

heres the picture that caught my eye and started the whole arguement
Attached Images
 
__________________
Nick
ncraig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2013, 07:37 AM   #13
Tesara
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: deleted
Posts: 129
I misunderstood it then, sorry, so are you saying that your contractor has installed a shower without waterproofing it sufficiently...

So you don't have a liquid or membrane waterproofing on top of the CBO and the pan... as the chosen style of waterproofing... am I right

The picture could be the stage before waterproofing with liquid or membrane waterproofing on top of those elements... it is still possible that they have waterproofed it after that stage... if they haven not, it will leak...
__________________
deleted

Last edited by Tesara; 06-28-2013 at 07:48 AM.
Tesara is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2013, 07:50 AM   #14
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 92,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesa
Nick, if the bathroom wall is waterproofed then it has a vapor barrier by design..
We need to be cautious with those terms, Tessa. Not all waterproofing membranes are vapor barriers, and we don't generally need them to be. Only when constructing steam showers are significant vapor retarders of a certain rating required.

Some method of moisture containment, and only one, is always required for any shower, though, as you are suggesting.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2013, 08:09 AM   #15
ncraig
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5
yes, this is only a staging picture, but no waterproofing was dont to the CB after that, the pan was installed and run up the studs about 6 inches then the last of the CBO screwed down over that.

Take the pan photo with a grain of salt, i have already made them take it out and redo it, there was no slope at all to the drain. its just attached to show the CBO fully installed
Attached Images
  
__________________
Nick
ncraig is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Vapor barrier vs Moisture barrier & locale DavidTu Tile Forum/Advice Board 6 07-01-2011 10:42 AM
To vapor barrier or not to vapor barrier brusu Tile Forum/Advice Board 10 12-09-2009 07:35 AM
Do I need a vapor barrier? jgulley Tile Forum/Advice Board 8 05-23-2008 08:08 AM
To Vapor Barrier or Not to Vapor Barrier, that is the question Beko Professionals' Hangout 22 05-06-2007 09:56 PM
Vapor Barrier Victoria1972 Tile Forum/Advice Board 11 05-29-2006 06:46 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:34 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC