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Old 12-03-2008, 04:47 PM   #1
DIYMAK
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Recessed floor upstairs possible?

I've searched to no avail this afternoon for an answer so I'll ask my first of many questions. Taking into consideration codes and such is it physically possible to recess an upstairs floor 2" to install a pan for a barrier free entrance or wet room effect (whatever you want to call it)? Can other wood be jointed to the joists to provide more than the necesary strength for a solid 2nd floor? Shower area is 36"x66"

I'm interested in using the prefab Schluter tray/shower kit, but I don't want to use their ramp, instead wanting a flat bathroom floor until the shower entrance where the slope will then begin.

What an awesome site...looking forward to your responses and learning and sharing more as I tackle these DIY home-owner projects! - Mike
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Old 12-03-2008, 04:54 PM   #2
martgreg
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there is always a way to do something but obviously codes get in the way....

do you to do it with code? or would you be content with something that is just plain solid and well built.....



how deep are your joist at the moment do you know ?

it may be as simple as sistering all you joists in that room and then removing the 2 inches... but if its on the second floor you will have to rip up alot of floor to secure the other ends of the joist ( as you mentioned)

I can't answer you question.. ( i am never really much help) but I know there will be someone here who can help


good luck...
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Old 12-03-2008, 05:25 PM   #3
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Hey Mike,

Quote:
Taking into consideration codes and such
That is a very open-ended question. Codes vary greatly. Physically possible? Sure. Recommended? Probably not. Bob or one of the injuneers will be along to help out, I'm sure.
Is there a specific reason you don't want to do just a regular curbless pan? We have quite a bit of info on this and quite a few of us have done it. We could definitely help you out.

Martin, that shower isn't tiling itself, buddy!
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Old 12-03-2008, 05:30 PM   #4
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Schluter has a scan of a great article from Fine Homebuilding on Barrier-Free Baths:

h.t.t.p://[schluter dot c.o.m]/media/fhb_art_tile_floor_us.pdf

(op, please fix the URL, since I don't have enough posts to submit it)
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Old 12-03-2008, 06:23 PM   #5
custombuilt
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you would only have to drop the floor in the shower area itself... Your strength depends on the size of your joists for deflection.... sistering and solid blocking will help....but not a lot.

You can tear up the floor, and frame joist headers in to "box in the area" where your shower will go.... basically as you would frame a stair opening in the floor. then drop smaller joists in in this area.

Mud your pan, kerdi it... ditra the floor with kerdi band and kerdi up the walls about a foot
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:40 PM   #6
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A response

Thanks everyone for the feedback to a crappy question, but I had to start somewhere. I plan on calling the city/county tomorrow to check on codes just in case. I don't start tear out until after the holidays, but I look forward to seeing what is under the floor.

In response to your questions:

Code for safety please unless I feel confident in the guidance received and my own research. I didn't pull a permit last time, but with water integrity I might have an inspector for this one!?

I don't know the size of the joists, 2x4, 2x12, etc., but probably the length of the bathroom (12 feet).

Do you mean a Schluter pan when you say "a regular curbless pan? I don't see how I can do anything curbless (prefab or otherwise) unless I recess the floor the correct amount.

Thanks PDQ for the link and Custombuilt I'll need more info from you later once I have the floor apart.

Again, thanks to all for the kind support. More to follow later...
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:08 PM   #7
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Doc's MB Shower Remodel

Okay, I'm back posting this master thread on my shower remodel with some before and current pics (see next post). Grab a beer or two as this first post unfortunately is a long read, I think. The mold issue wasn't as bad as I had anticipated as the ceiling downstairs had a noticeable patch job so I knew there was something wrong upstairs. Although there is no give to the wood I will be replacing the tub/shower framing and floor. I cut through the floor today to identify the joist type/spacing. I will not be removing the two walls I posted about earlier in the month (one of them is a short wall of the shower stall pictured with the towel ring and light switches) since I believe these are supporting walls. The joists above run perpendicular to them and span the entire width of the bathroom (12').

A new window has been installed replacing the 4'x2' slider giving us a wonderful view and a new tub is on the way. Pics are attached for your review along with the following bullets:

1. Floor joists are 24” OC (other than that take a look at the pictures for other possible terminology/measurements) as I still want to recess the shower floor to create the "no curb" or very low curb effect. Looks like ¾” tung & groove particleboard for the floor. I don’t know if this is want they used for the entire bathroom.

2. The previous curb was several inches high made of the two 2x4s, vinyl liner, about 2” of concrete, and tile. I'm hoping the new curb will be the height of the wood only or lower. Again, I will be replacing the wood shown. Any thoughts?

3. I will be anchoring heavy glass to the wall that will run along the tub/shower wall and then down to the curb. The wood there now (photo) is one stud and to the left of it another 2x4 perpendicular to it. Is this enough support for a heavy glass wall (I think its 3/8” glass) or do I need to add another 2x4 behind it?

4. I've read some posts, but I'm still confused on supporting the new shower floor once I remove the current floor. Maybe this will become clear once I get feedback on recessing the floor. I wrote this earlier and now that I’ve been under the floor and seen the support I don’t know if this is even possible. Please see pics

5. PB pipe is being replaced with CPVC. Wish the class action suit offered PEX as a replacement item or that I could afford it (heavy sigh).

6. Current plan is to have a contractor build a dry pack pan after possibly moving the drain to the center of the floor (currently about 6-8" off center towards the shower head) in this order: felt, lathe, pre-slope mud, 40 mil vinyl liner, and mud/drain/tile. Walls will be Durock with RedGard.

7. Under the tub appears to be a wood floor, a layer of roofing paper and then right under the footprint of the tub a sheet of actual felt for cushioning!? I'll be able to see better when I replace the tub.


8. With the tub on the way, I think the project will go in this order (1) remove tub (2) frame and tile tub surround/shower wall (3) install tub (4) recess shower floor? (4) build shower pan (5) install niches and monument corner seat adjacent to shower/tub wall (5) install Durock (6) RedGard (7) tile.

9. Now for the Schluter experts, since my shower is 36" x 66", if I understand everything I've read, a Schluter pan isn't available in this size (only 60” long) and cutting down the 72"x72" won't work either since the longer sides won't be the same height as the shorter sides and won't give me same/proper slope and/or height around the edges that is required. This is why I'm doing the dry pack route instead (cheaper too). Can someone tell me different as the reps and e-mail responses from Schluter haven't been all that helpful.

More questions to follow as I get a better grasp on the planning aspects of this project before moving forward.

Thanks in advance for all the support!
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:13 PM   #8
DIYMAK
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More pics

The rest of the pics...
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Old 12-29-2008, 06:39 PM   #9
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I just wanna know about that possum or whatever it is investigating your tub.

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Old 01-03-2009, 10:26 AM   #10
DIYMAK
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Tub has arrived

The new tub has arrived and I schedule the plumber on Monday to move the shower drain, sinks and tub drain (L hand to R hand).

QUESTIONS:

1. Should I replace the flooring in the shower and if the flooring under the tub is similar should I replace it too?
I don't anticipate any rot, mildew, deflection, etc. and hope I will be able to frame and install the new tub without any problem. I wouldn't know OSB if it hit me. What does it look like to you? I do know its tung & groove and 3/4".

2. How do I support new flooring in the shower area? Floor support is 24" OC with the first one being almost right down the center of the shower with the next being in the closet and under the tub.

3. What height can I expect on the perimeter of the shower pan if the farthest point is 36" from the center of the drain going with the standard 1/4"/ft rule? Which route (Schluter, Quick Pitch, dry pack) allows for the shortest drain height? Can I expect to start with a drain 1/4" above the subflooring? 1/2"? 1"?

4. I'm installing a PreFormed™ Tile Ready Corner Shower Seat (20"H x23"W). Does this go inside the shower pan and if so do I need to trim the bottom to match the slope of the floor? If outside the pan do I apply Redgard over it to make it water proof before tiling? The old seat/framing was outside the pan and they didn't apply Redgard or vinyl barrier over it (as many of you have posted), which ended in mild mildew/staining and a leak downstairs.

5. Dry pack shower pan - I believe the most recommended method is 30lb felt and wire lathe for support and vapor barrier, pre-slope, 40 mil vinyl barrier, slope, then tile. Is this correct? If another way is better then please tell why. The old shower pan was subflooring, 40 mil barrier, dry pack, and tile.

6. And lastly, if I understand everything I've read, can I cut a 72"x72" Schluter shower pan down to 36" x 66" and have the same height all around (short and long sides) that is required. Can someone tell me different as the reps and e-mail responses from Schluter haven't been all that helpful.


That's enough for now, more to follow after your responses. Thanks!
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:59 AM   #11
Brian in San Diego
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Mike,

1. The stuff you have in your pictures is OSB "oriented strand board".
2. I am not familiar with the "joist" system you have and wouldn't know how to advise you about supporting the floor in the shower but from what I see from your photos it looks like there is water damage. Is there any way to install 2xs to "box" off an area between the engineered joists? Some way to lend support to any unsupported edges of the subfloor.
3. Over wood subfloor you should have a minimum of 1" of mud at the drain. The height of the mud at the perimeter would have to be 1 3/4" (3' x .25").
4. Inside the shower pan.
5. If this is a kerdi shower then you are confusing methods here. If you are going to make a mud pan (which I would recommend over using a Schluter tray) you put down the felt and the wire and form your mud bed on top of that. Kerdi gets applied to that mud bed.
6. There is no way, no how I would cut that much off one dimension of a kerdi tray and not the other. you are reducing the length by 6" and the width by 36". I believe it will be more trouble than it is worth.

Brian
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Old 01-03-2009, 05:21 PM   #12
DIYMAK
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Thanks Brian!


OSB, got it! Is 3/4" OSB good enough for sub-flooring? Considering the orginal builder I can only assume based on their other cost-saving techniques there may be something better to use? Or is the overall thickness the primary concern?

Yes, after cutting the wall to investigate lowering the floor for a curbless shower I now regret having done so; I didn't think ahead of how I would frame out a new support system for a new floor. Since the top of the joists are a horizontal 2x4 I can only think of nailing (frequently) a 2x4 frame to them to support the new floor. Any other ideas anyone? (see attached drawing for current support system)

Thanks for the guidance on the thickness of the mud bed.

Yes, I didnt' think cutting a big Schluter pan would work as all the sides wouldn't be the same height.
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File Type: doc floor framing.doc (24.5 KB, 143 views)
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Old 01-04-2009, 01:11 PM   #13
DIYMAK
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Bump...any thoughts on the floor framing file below?
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:32 PM   #14
DIYMAK
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DIY tub tile flange

Is there a thread on making your own tub tile flange? If so, I can't find it so here's the question. How do you make your own tile flange or seal the tub against the wall so leaks don't happen under the tile resting on the tub. The tub I have was going to be a drop in install so it was bought without the integral tile flange, but now because of overall room size contstraints the wifey changed her mind so we will be butting it up against three walls (one of them a pony wall separating the tub and shower). Help!!!
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:41 PM   #15
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Hi Mike,

The tub manufacturers usually have "tile kits" or "tile strips" to go with their drop-in tubs for occasions like this, but I've found that using silicone works better. Get a couple tubes of 100% silicone caulk and build it up on the top edge of the tub back against the studs so that it will be under the drywall or backer board (whatever you use for tile backing). Make the "berm" about 3/8 to 1/2 in. high, and make sure it's continuous. Let it set overnight before you install the sheetrock or backer board.
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