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Unread 03-08-2020, 10:00 PM   #46
TileStuff
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I agree that it's not common, but I wouldn't say a shower would never be subjected to that. Sometimes things drip and aren't remedied. The sprinkler test he did shows it doesn't have to be submerged for water to penetrate, just a constant source will do it.

I went down the youtube rabbit hole today, discovered the beef.

While I'm sure the kerdi system is fine, I mean, much better than thin poly stapled to wood in a tub that lasted over 40 years, it's still definitely preferable to have no water migrating anywhere at all. Liquid membrane insurance over sheet membrane doesn't seem like a bad idea.
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Unread 03-09-2020, 05:49 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim
If you look closely to that mentioned video, you'll see a lot of thinset, puckered seams and some other deficiencies...
Exactly my take when I watched that video. Whoa, that looks like a lot of thinset mortar, thickly applied.
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Unread 03-09-2020, 07:04 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse
Liquid membrane insurance over sheet membrane doesn't seem like a bad idea.
If you like the liquid membrane, Jesse, why bother with the sheet membrane at all?
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Unread 03-09-2020, 11:29 AM   #49
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I don't believe the accusations of installer error on Isaac's part. He has multiple tests, even patch tests with differing amounts of thinset left under the band. Simple fact is that thinset isn't waterproof and it wicks water, no matter who installs it.

I like both membranes. Liquid is prone to pinholes and cracking while sheet membranes applied with thinset have wicking problems at the seams. Sheet membrane with liquid protection on the seams doesn't seem like a bad idea at all.

I can understand the stick to one system sentiment, but manufacturers never back up a warranty anyway, so when you see multiple tests showing water coming through with one method and not when you take a few minutes throw in a little liquid membrane, makes sense to cover your ass.
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Unread 03-09-2020, 11:33 AM   #50
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Well, you've clearly made your decision, Jesse, so I say "Go for it."

Someday you may find out if it all worked out well for you.
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Unread 03-09-2020, 01:42 PM   #51
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Haven't yet completely made my decision.

Since I completed the ensuite bathroom denshield has become available in my area, just noticed it. I think I'll go that route after some calculating. Still undecided about a traditional 3 piece drain and liner or the kerdi+liquid. Traditional would cost less but more labour of course.

Quick cost comparison:

Denshield = $1.38/sq.ft -already waterproof
kerdi = $2.18/sq.ft + $0.45/sq.ft drywall = $2.63/sq.ft
Redgard = $1.80/sq.ft + $1.30/sq.ft cement board = $3.1/sq.ft

Walls with Denshield is a no-brainer here for me. I'll tape/thinset the seams and coat only the seams with redgard, or ardex 8+9 if I can get my hands on some.

For the liner I can go with traditional:

Drain = $20
liner = $40
extra deck mud = $10

Or Kerdi:

Drain = $100
Kerdi membrane = $100
Kerdi corners = $60

So an extra couple hundred to go the kerdi membrane and drain route. Pretty sure I could do another mudbed in a couple hours and basically pay myself $100/hour, but I'd like to try something new now that I've done the traditional build.

If I go traditional I guess you can't stick the denshield down into the mudbed to hold the bottom in place like you can with cement board. When I did my other shower, I dipped the bottom of the boards in redgard, front, back, bottom endge and sides. Just sealed up the bottom couple inches so it couldn't absorb anything out of the mud bed, even though it's cement board. I guess I could do the same thing with the denshield. I don't like the idea of leaving a gap to the bed with nothing holding the bottom portion of the walls until past the liner.
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Unread 03-09-2020, 02:11 PM   #52
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Jesse I've done a couple with sheet membrane and hit the seams with Regard just for extra insurance. I wasn't really worried about the floor so much, but rather the places where we tend to see failures.

So I hit the seams on the corner benches, the curb, and the bottom of the niches. I guess if I was flood testing I might hit all seams below the top of the curb just to avoid the inevitable questions from a customer about moisture migration.
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Unread 03-09-2020, 03:49 PM   #53
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I did nothing of the sort. Just Durock's membrane on the shower floor - with a seam the length of the 83" floor, Kerdi pre-formed inside corners, Durock water proof foam wall boards, and Durock 5" membrane band to tile the floor to wall and wall seams together. Durock drain. Same treatment for the corner benches, or of which gets inundated with water.

48 hr flood test, and continuous use for the last 5 months, often with both shower heads running. Certainly not a long term test but zero evidence of any leak.

FWIW.
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Unread 03-10-2020, 11:10 AM   #54
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Thanks for mentioning that Kevin, makes me feel better about doing it myself.

No Durock available for me, except the cement boards. Unless I wanna gamble on some trugard or AlinO membrane I'm stuck with Kerdi.

Time to get the old drywall down and do some plumbing. Thinking I'll just leave the ceiling drywall up and make a groove for the pex, and then just board over it. Need to leave the space to have the pex inside the insulation anyway.
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Unread 03-10-2020, 02:44 PM   #55
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Durock Shower System membrane is available to you from Amazon and from Contractors Direct, Jesse.
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Unread 03-10-2020, 03:34 PM   #56
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Only the Durock membrane band is available from amazon.ca, not the actual membrane. Contractors direct would mean ordering from the USA, which means expensive shipping and customs/brokerage fees.

At least we have denshield now. Saves time and money compared to anything else.
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Unread 03-10-2020, 06:36 PM   #57
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I find the membrane available on Amazon here.

The part about shipping is one of the reasons I invited you earlier to put a geographic location in your User Profile, Jesse. Helps with a number of different kinds of questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse
At least we have denshield now. Saves time and money compared to anything else.
You'll wanna be careful with that.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 03-11-2020, 02:00 AM   #58
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Added location. CX, It's available for you on Amazon.com, not available for me though, won't ship to my location. Usually if it's available in Canada it's available from Amazon.ca.

CX, can you elaborate why I should be careful with denshield? You're vague warning is begging a question.

I need to relocate the drain. Currently it's a 1.5" running into a 2" that also gathers the 2" shower drain from the ensuite. Seems there's also another 2" drain capped off you can see in the photo where the 1.5" goes into the T. I have no idea what that's all about.

For a shower with 1 head minimum code is 1.5" from what I understand, but the shower stall in the ensuite had 2" while this roman tube + shower has 1.5". Currently the 1.5" has a slight grade as it has to pass under the 2x12 before coming up. When I move the drain into the center it won't have to pass under the 2x12 any more and I can give it a 1' drop over 3' before it hits the 2" downspout or whatever it's called.

So what would you folks do? Should I not worry about the 1.5" cause the grade to the 2" can be so steep, and only 3' span, or would you cut the 2" downspout thing and put in a new T to do a 2" all the way? That looks like it might be tough because of the other 2" T being so close, not enough pipe left to connect another one.

If I leave in the T with the 1.5" side outlet, what's the best place for the bushing to bring it up to 2" to fit the drain? Right near the T? Or right before the drain?

I will add that the shower in the roman tub never had trouble draining before with it's slightly graded 1.5", but still worth asking about.

Photo explanation: The paper towel is in the current drain location. Rectangular hole is where the downpipe T is that the 1.5 inch travels to from current drain location. Photo under the subfloor is facing towards the T, showing how when I move the drain (to the right in the photo) I can increase the grade to the T after clearing the joist.

I got all the drywall off today and planned my bench and plumbing scheme. Cut off the old copper and removed the whole faucet assembly that was welded together rather than bothering with the puller. Soldered on some pex adapters and added some shut off valves so I could turn my house water back on. (probably should have shut off valves anyway, I can access them through the opposite wall if needed) All of the walls around the tub have been insulated, is this normal? Should I just leave it there, any reason to remove it?
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Unread 03-11-2020, 08:37 AM   #59
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Jesse, that DensShield is a gypsum-based product. They call it water-resistant gypsum, but it's still gypsum. The fiberglass coatings are listed as a moisture barrier rather than a waterproof coating. It cannot be burried in the top mud bed of a traditional shower receptor to provide stability where no mechanical fasteners can be used and they depend upon a bead of flexible sealant at the bottom of the wallboard to protect the gypsum interior. The manufacturer no longer requires any waterproofing over the mechanical fasteners nor over the seams in the wallboard. The seams are taped with fiberglass mesh and thinset mortar.

It may be a useful product if properly applied, but I'm just not particularly comfortable with it in a shower application as designed, but see my warranty information below.

It is my understanding that your 1 1/2" shower drain is perfectly acceptable, but the only place you can make a transition to a 2" shower drain is immediately at the drain fixture itself. A 2" to 1 1/2" bushing there should meet any code compliance inspector's requirements, but you cannot reduce the drain size anywhere downstream of that.

That should all apply anywhere south of the 49th parallel, but I can't testify at all about Canadian code.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 03-11-2020, 11:38 AM   #60
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Just checked the price of the USG membrane on contractors direct site; $60 for 25 feet versus Kerdi at $158 for 23 feet at Homers. Wow, big difference.

Wondering I should stock up on a couple rolls of USG for my two bathrooms. Be nice to know when and how the USG line will be reincarnated!?!
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