Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 05-30-2020, 10:19 PM   #1
Jongrossman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Long Island
Posts: 16
Tile over tile in new shower

Our brand new master bathroom shower (in our brand new customer home) is not pitched at all toward the drain. In fact, it is bowed outward from the drain in the center, so water pools at both ends of the shower. My contractor’s proposed solution is to cut out the drain and lift it up, and simply install another pitched tile floor on top of the existing tile floor. He says this is the best solution because it won’t risk damaging the wall tile or the stuff underneath the shower floor (the shower pan? Mud job? Things I know nothing about). He also says this will create an “additional layer” of waterproofing so we are even less likely to have water problems down the road. I am concerned he’s taking the cheap and easy way out and that there may be serious problems with this approach. Can this be done right? Is this a viable solution? What should I be insisting on?

Thanks so much.
Jongrossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 05-31-2020, 01:36 AM   #2
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 32,884
No, don't let him do it. This isn't a 50 year old shower that you want to patch up so it will last a couple more years. It's a new shower and that's what he should be giving you. He should carefully remove the shower floor making sure not to damage the pan liner, re-mud and retile it with the proper slope. After he tears out the floor, have him plug the drain and flood test it 24 hours before tiling it back.

Another thing. Make sure there's a preslope under the pan liner. To check it, after he tears out the tile and mud floor, set a level on the pan liner, it should have 1/4 inch per ft pitch towards the drain from all directions.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 04:58 AM   #3
Jongrossman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Long Island
Posts: 16
Thanks Davy. Can you please explain the issues with the tile on tile approach? Is it that water will get trapped between the floors, or is more likely to get into the walls (since walls were tiled before the second upper shower floor)? I may get pushback from the contractor so I want to be educated about the pitfalls with his proposal. This bathroom is basically finished at this point.

Also, if the floor pan is damaged during the redo or isn’t presloped, will he need to tear everything out (wall tile, saddle, etc.) and start over?
__________________
Jon
Jongrossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 08:03 AM   #4
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 32,884
We would need to know exactly what materials he plans to use. If he plans to add an additional layer of waterproofing, there's no way to properly do that over the tile you now have. He can't just install another pan liner or paint Redgard on the floor. To be waterproof, it needs to tie into the drain and also go up the walls and fold over the curb. Just flat on the floor won't hold water. If I understand you correctly, the way he plans to do it will still let water thru and the tile you have now will still hold water, but it'll be under the second layer.

I don't know why he wants to do it like this. It would be easier to replace the tile and mud you now have. Apparently he doesn't feel he can remove it without damaging the pan.

If he damages the pan, he would need to remove the curb, floor and wall tiles up about 12 inches. The thing is, it's very hard to tie in new waterproofing to the waterproofing you now have (should have)behind the wall tiles.

Who installed the pan liner ?
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com

Last edited by Davy; 05-31-2020 at 08:16 AM.
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 08:38 AM   #5
Jongrossman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Long Island
Posts: 16
I’m not sure whether the plumber or tilers installed the initial pan liner and mud job. I’ve attached a photo of the liner and mud job, as well as some pics of the finished product.

I think the reluctance on his part is that he doesn’t want to risk damaging the pan, and also that it entails additional expense to buy more wall tile, and remove the expensive quartz saddle we just installed. Also there’s the cost to hire a new (hopefully competent) tiler to fix this.

To your eye, does it look like the liner goes up the walls properly? Would the liner go behind or in front of the greenboard?

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.
Attached Images
    
__________________
Jon
Jongrossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 08:55 AM   #6
Redlands Okie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 201
Keep in mind you have paid to have a correctly built shower. Make sure he provides that. Patching over the top of what you have is not what you paid for or should expect. Expense and hassle is his problem, should not be yours. Lesson learning time for him and or his subcontractor.
__________________
Robert
Redlands Okie is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 09:18 AM   #7
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 32,884
What Robert said. None of this is your fault.

Being new construction, surely city inspections were made. Is that correct?

What did he install the tiles to on the curb?

Installing the pan is the plumber's job although most don't know how to install them properly. Yes, the pan liner covers the floor and folds up the walls 3 inches above the curb height. It runs up the walls behind the cement board. Surely he didn't use green board?
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com

Last edited by Davy; 05-31-2020 at 09:29 AM.
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 10:02 AM   #8
Jongrossman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Long Island
Posts: 16
Yes, we had a plumbing inspection and passed. I don’t think that pre-sloping is required by code where we live.

“What did he install the tiles to on the curb?” I’m not sure that I follow the question. Do you mean did he install the tiles directly onto the liner that ran up and over the curb? I can take some pictures if helpful.

Just want to make sure I understand correctly, if the pan needs to be replaced: they will need to remove 12 inches of wall tile, also remove the cement board behind it, pull out old liner, place a pre-slope base on shower floor, then place a new pan liner that will go up the wall 3 inches above the curb height, then a new mud job, new cement board, floor tile, then wall tile. Is that right?
__________________
Jon
Jongrossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 10:15 AM   #9
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 91,239
Welcome, Jon.

No, that's probably not correct.

What they need to do start over and build you a properly waterproofed shower, which is what you paid them for.

Removing only the bottom foot or so of a shower to replace the receptor is a band-aid approach and suitable only for temporary repairs as Davy pointed out in post #2. There is no way to properly tie the repair into the existing wall waterproofing (if any) in that type of repair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon
I don’t think that pre-sloping is required by code where we live.
Would be a lot more meaningful if you'd add a geographic location to your User Profile, Jon.

The slope to drain in any plumbing application is required by plumbing code regardless what your local code might say, or not say, about having a pre-slope under a traditionally built shower receptor. Drain plumbing (your shower pan liner is part of the drain plumbing) must always be properly sloped. And even if your local code doesn't address the issue, the ANSI standards for the ceramic tile industry require that slope in a traditionally built shower receptor. If you have a traditional shower receptor (do we know that?), you must have a pre-slope. Your GC should certainly know that.

You paid for a properly constructed new shower; you should get a properly constructed new shower.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 10:33 AM   #10
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 32,884
Jon, what we've found over the years is that most leaks start at the curb. There are not supposed to be any penetrations thru the top or inside of the curb, the outside of the curb is fine. We find a lot of installers nail/screw cement board on the curb, of course ruining the pan.

As far as removing the bottom 12 inches of wall tiles, That's what he would want to do if he ruins the pan liner. But, like Cx and I said, it's a Band-Aid approach and hard to tie in the waterproofing from the old to the new.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com

Last edited by Davy; 05-31-2020 at 10:44 AM.
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 10:34 AM   #11
Kman
Moderator
 
Kman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NW Arkansas, Ozark Mountains
Posts: 11,632
Considering the amount of backfall in that one picture, I'd not let the same installer do the new shower.
__________________
Kevin

The top ten reasons to procrastinate:

1.
Kman is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 10:50 AM   #12
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 32,884
It's hard for me to see the bubble on the level. I agree with Kevin, if he can't get the basics down, what else has he done wrong.

This isn't anything new, Jon. We see it all the time. It's a shame, installations like this keeps us busy.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 11:35 AM   #13
Jongrossman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Long Island
Posts: 16
Thanks all. Davy, I uploaded a couple more photos to show where the bubble is on the level. I’m no expert, but it’s on the wrong side of the level.

Please help me make sure I’m understanding this helpful advice. So I will have the contractor tear up the floor tile and the mud job. If this is done properly and carefully and (1) does NOT damage the pan, and if (2) the shower pan was pre-sloped correctly, and if (3) the cement board was not screwed or nailed into the inside of the curb, then is it correct to say that this problem can be fixed without ripping out all the wall tile?

If the pan is damaged, I now understand from Davy and Cx that the 12 inch option would allow a new pan to be installed, but would only be a patch as the new waterproofing is very difficult to tie with the old. So if the pan is damaged, the whole entire shower, walls and floor, should ideally be ripped out and start again from square 1.

Also, basic question: how difficult is it to remove a mud job without damaging the pan liner?
Attached Images
   
__________________
Jon
Jongrossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 01:56 PM   #14
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 91,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon
So if the pan is damaged, the whole entire shower, walls and floor, should ideally be ripped out and start again from square 1.
Add, "or not installed correctly over a proper pre-slope" and you've got it. The minimum required thickness of the top mud bed is a uniform 1 1/2 inches, by the way.

Removing the top layer of mud bed in a conventional shower receptor is usually not a terribly difficult maneuver if the proper mud mix was used, but it does require care to prevent damage.

Unfortunately, with what you've described thus far I wouldn't be at all confident that your receptor installation is going to be repairable. It would be difficult to get a top mud bed to slope the wrong direction when placed over a properly sloped pan liner. Would almost hafta be done with intent.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 02:01 PM   #15
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 32,884
Jon, you are correct. You might add that there shouldn't be any penetrations thru the top of the curb too. The curb should have lath on it, fastening from the outside only. Then mudded like it shows in the shower construction thread that we keep in the "liberry". You'll see it in the blue bar above.

The tear out must be done slowly. If he gets in a hurry, he will damage the liner. I use a small 5 lb sledge hammer and a cold chisel. But it's easy to knock the chisel thru the liner. He has to take his time. A lot of the pounding is done with the hammer only, to avoid getting the chisel close to the pan.

Like we all said, this is a new shower and that's what you should be getting. Not a patch job.

In 45+ years, I've seen shower floors that were flat but never with that much reverse pitch.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to float glass tile up to meet the ceramic tile in a shower? peter941 Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 07-08-2012 08:33 PM
Install tile shelf in existing ceramic tile shower. jgibbs Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 06-05-2012 09:44 PM
Tiling outside corner with glass tile. Also ending 1/2 wall tile at tiled shower cmarks927 Tile Forum/Advice Board 13 03-11-2011 06:24 PM
cutting holes in tile and installing over current tile shower floor philawkndwarrior Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 01-13-2008 07:16 PM
Totally need shower tile advice before having this guy re-tile our old shower fwsmith Tile Forum/Advice Board 195 01-05-2007 01:32 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:12 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC