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Unread 12-30-2007, 05:25 PM   #1
Dave U.K.
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Ditra...query

Hi guys and gals....

Have question which is quiet a dilemma in the UK....
Schluter.com recommend you install ditra using the appropiate adhesive for the substrate..ok no probs with that....
They then say that you install the tile with un-modified thin-set.
ok with that if using ceramics and stone tiles but what about porcelain tiles.
Porcelain tiles will not bond to unmodified thin-set.
Now i put this question to schluter.uk and they gave me this reply...have you any thoughts on this please....

Thank you for your enquiry regarding the application of Schlüter®-DITRA.

It sounds like the information you refer to was found via www.schluter.com. Please refer to www.schluter.co.uk for recommendations in the UK.

The type of adhesive used to apply Schlüter®-DITRA depends on the type of substrate. The adhesive must bond to the substrate and mechanically anchor the fleece on the underside of the Schlüter®-DITRA matting. For timber substrates, a vinyl acrylic adhesive or hydraulic cementitious tile adhesive may be considered, e.g. Ardex AF200 or single part flexible.

Immediately after the Schlüter®-DITRA matting is installed, the tiles can be fixed using the thin bed method and using an adhesive that matches the requirements of the tile covering. Therefore, porcelain tiles will require the appropriate adhesive, which will bond to the tile.

We hope that this helps with your enquiry. If we can be of further assistance, please don't hesitate to contact us here at Bardon 22.

...........................

So if i read that correct then they are saying you can use modified thin-set...?????????????
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Unread 12-30-2007, 06:59 PM   #2
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yep!
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Unread 12-30-2007, 07:29 PM   #3
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Hi Dave,

It is confusing. I feel more confident using a modified thinset when bonding porcelain to Ditra. The dowside though is drying time.

I use Versabond almost exclusively. There are a few exceptions ( i.e rapid set) but I still use Versabond to set porcelain over Ditra. I just wait a week or so to grout. This allows plenty of time for the thinset to dry out between the two impervious layers.

I'm pretty sure JB does as well...

Jason
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Unread 12-30-2007, 07:58 PM   #4
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Hi Dave,

All I can tell you is that the various branches of Schluter operate somewhat independently. Schluter.com covers North America.

On the matter of regular thin set sticking to porcelain tiles, though, I can assure you that it will. I did it years ago with Granite Fiandre on nearly a daily basis, and I've done it more recently with Ditra-Set from Bostik on a number of porcelains, all with no problems whatever.

http://www.johnbridge.com/ditra_set.htm
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Unread 12-31-2007, 05:43 AM   #5
Dave U.K.
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cheers jason and J.B.

I am awaiting a reply from schluter as porcelain is very very popular in the uk
and as you know we fixers/setters like to make sure an installation is going to last....my point with schluter is exactly as jason has said...schluter.com say that modified adhesives need air to dry as well...so if i want fast track tile installations then why do schluter.uk recommend modified..???
We in the uk have modified adhesives that set in 2hrs...these adhesives are cement based..so that can be the only reason that i think schluter uk recommend this....are the modified thin-sets you guys use cement based or do they chemicaly set..??
This can be the only difference that i can see.....
Sorry for the rant but shcluter.com and schluter.uk shouldn't have conflicting fixing methods on the same product...don't you think the same....

I will let you know what schluter.uk have to say.....cheers...
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Unread 12-31-2007, 07:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
are the modified thin-sets you guys use cement based or do they chemicaly set..??
Yes. The thinsets in the States that we describe as modified are portland cement based with a latex or acrylic additive. (Technically, the portland cure process is chemical). It is the additives that need some air to fully cure.
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Unread 12-31-2007, 09:56 AM   #7
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Not sure about the chemical action in hydration, but that's how portland cement cures. It hydrates and forms a mechanical bond. Doesn't need air to do that.

The polymers that are added to modified thin sets do need air in order to "dry, so even though the cement hydrates, it's still possible for the mix to be loose until the polymers dry. That's what Schluter.com is concerned with.

The problem with that stance is that all modified thin sets don't act alike. Versa Bond, for example, sets up between two impervious surfaces, albeit it takes a couple days for that to happen. It is possible to grout such an installation the next day, though. Nothing is going to move.

So Schluter.com has chosen to not get brand specific. Apparently, Schluter.uk doesn't think it's a problem at all (which it is, depending on which product is used). Although all Schluter branches are affiliated with the German company, a certain amount of local discretion is tolerated. So, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. I can't say more than that.

. . . Except that all high-quality dry-set thin set (unmodified adhesives) will bond porcelain tiles. When you think about it, porcelain has been around nearly forever. What did we do before the popularity of modified mortars?
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Unread 12-31-2007, 10:06 AM   #8
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Well said John
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Unread 12-31-2007, 10:15 AM   #9
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exactly my point J.B. cheers for that.....
But you just like to make sure when you are installing thousands of £/$ of a customers hard earned money....

I have alway's stuck to schluter.coms recommends but as of recent some the members on our forum are querying this method.. so i emailed schluter.uk and this sparked this off....

Out of interest i will still let you know what schluter.uk have to say....

many thanks..............
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Unread 12-31-2007, 10:17 AM   #10
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Hydration

http://www.cement.org/basics/concret...retebasics.asp

Quote:
All portland cements are hydraulic cements that set and harden through a chemical reaction with water. During this reaction, called hydration, a node forms on the surface of each cement particle. The node grows and expands until it links up with nodes from other cement particles or adheres to adjacent aggregates.
It's truly fascinating stuff. I suppose you could study it for years and still have a lot to learn.
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Unread 12-31-2007, 11:07 AM   #11
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Instead of going against what the industry says why doesn’t Shluter simply go brand specific like many of the glass manufactures do?
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Unread 12-31-2007, 11:14 AM   #12
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I have also asked schluter.uk if they intend to introduce ditra-set into the UK..then this would make me HAPPY....
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Unread 01-03-2008, 11:05 AM   #13
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hi guys just to let you know i got a another reply from schluter.uk regarding using modified adhesives on Ditra...They do advise we here in the UK can use a modoified adhesive....here is there reply. i know this doesn't comply with your spec from schluter.com but i thought i would just let you know what the final out come was.....many thanks to J.B for his input.....

Dear David

Thank you for your recent enquiry regarding the use of Schlüter®-DITRA and it’s compatibility with cementitious adhesives.

Whilst the Installation Guide found on our American sister companies web site is generally generic, it must be observed that it is written for the North American market, therefore it quotes ASTM standards, which do vary greatly from the ones we use in Europe. In North America they use different parameters to classify adhesives, based on formulation and polymer types, also they need to take account of the various environmental conditions (temperature and humidity), throughout the continent. We recommend that all information for the UK is obtained via our own web site www.schluter.co.uk .

In Europe we use BS EN 12004 for adhesive classification, which we use ourselves in the UK. Cement based adhesives suitable for Schlüter®-DITRA are normally classified C1 or C2 adhesives based on the tile being used.

The use of BAL products with Porcelbond has been used with Schlüter®-DITRA for many years, which are generally classified as CT2 adhesives, we will generally advise that when using a highly vitrified tile a Single Part Flexible type of adhesive is used with Schlüter®-DITRA, depending on application.

If in doubt our Technical Department is only a phone call way.

Yours sincerely


Steve Dennis
Senior Business Development Manager
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Unread 01-03-2008, 11:34 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddmoit
It's truly fascinating stuff. I suppose you could study it for years and still have a lot to learn.
All I can say to that, Dan, as a fella who has fooled with conctete and cement for years, is that it prolly qualifies as one of your more profound understatements.

Thanks for posting that response, Dave, but I gotta admit it clarifies absolutely nothing for me. I don't even know if those European classifications even have to do with Portland-based setting materials, let alone whether they indicate whether the product would be considered "modified" by our standards here.

We're still two countries divided by a common language, eh?
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Unread 01-03-2008, 11:40 AM   #15
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Hi CX mate.. yes they are cement based products.. it's just down the manufacturing of UK adhesives and the types of polymers used according to a telephone conversation i had with schluter.uk...
But as long as each method works then thats the main thing isnt it..

But it is nice to change views and ways that things are done in different country's....

It has been a learning curve .........cheers to all.....
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