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Unread 02-04-2022, 01:20 AM   #16
Kman
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I gotta be honest, Steve. I'm either concentrating really hard on following my lines or completely zoning out when cutting tile. 20-30 seconds seems slow enough to me.

But we've all had tile that seems to chip worse than normal. Maybe that's the problem you're having. You may only be able to mitigate it with the advice you find here.
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Unread 02-07-2022, 11:40 AM   #17
Steve in Denver
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I received my replacement blade (Razor T3) and it has a lot of runout, too. The cuts don't feel smooth - there is a ragged/vibrating feel to it as you feed the tile.

After 3 bad blades I know the obvious conclusion would be that the tile saw is the problem, but the data doesn't seem to back that up:

1. Runout on the DeWalt blade is significantly lower than the other 2 (0.005"-0.007", I think)
2. Runout on the two Razor blades is the same when measured on the saw and off the saw (about 0.015"). I'm measuring it off the saw with machine shop grade dial indicator and granite surface plate - the measurements are accurate.
3. Runout on the arbor was low - maybe enough to account for 0.005" (or less) at the blade rim.

It's really hard to find specs on what is acceptable for runout - the best I can come up with is "5 thousandths or less", but I haven't found anything official.

So my questions at this point:
1. Does anyone know of a spec for blade runout? Is 0.015" acceptable?
2. I can clearly see the blade wobble back and forth as the saw spins down - is this normal?
3. Should the cut feel smooth and continuous, or is it normal for it to feel grindy / rough as you feed the tile?
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Unread 02-07-2022, 02:44 PM   #18
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(not a tiling pro)

Don't know any runout specs. Have you tried measuring run-out on the same blade more than once? Have you checked the motor shaft for play? The runout and warp readings you are getting might just be a vibration mode. Getting 2 bad blades in a row seems pretty unlikely. I have 4 blades and none of them feel as bad as you describe.

Wobbling blade for any kind of saw doesn't sound normal. Is it wobbling of the blade or could the arm holding the blade+motor be loose? Is anything else vibrating significantly?

The cuts felt smooth for me, even with my cheapo harbor fright saw unless a) I used the way off-balance dewalt blade with the off-center arbor hole or b) used a turbo blade with the segmented rim. But even with the segmented blade, you feel the vibration from the segments but it still feels like the actual cutting is smooth. More like a pulsing resistance, not grindy / rough like you said.
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Unread 02-07-2022, 03:15 PM   #19
Steve in Denver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceCadet
Have you tried measuring run-out on the same blade more than once?
Yes, I have repeated my measurements several times on both blades and they were always consistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceCadet
Have you checked the motor shaft for play? The runout and warp readings you are getting might just be a vibration mode. Getting 2 bad blades in a row seems pretty unlikely.
I haven't checked for shaft play, but I don't suspect that is the issue for a few reasons. First, it's a brand new saw. Second, the blades themselves are definitely warped / non-planar since I can measure this off the saw.

As far as vibration, this could be a factor which makes things worse, but to be clear I am measuring runout statically. Other than me turning the saw by hand, the blade isn't moving. (so the runout I'm measuring can't be due to any vibration)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceCadet
Wobbling blade for any kind of saw doesn't sound normal. Is it wobbling of the blade or could the arm holding the blade+motor be loose?
I will double check the arm tightness etc., but I do not think this is the issue. The blade wobble is not detectable when the saw is running at full speed, but is readily apparent as the blade slows down. Looking straight on you can see the blade move left/right axially.


Maybe I'm being too picky or expecting too much, but based on what other people seem to get out of this blade (and saw), I think something isn't right.
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Unread 02-07-2022, 04:13 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
First, it's a brand new saw.
And it's 2 brand new blades. More likely you'd get 1 defective something than 2 defective somethings.

But did you dress the blade? They don't cut smooth right out of the box.
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Unread 02-07-2022, 04:23 PM   #21
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Steve, you can get some pretty serious wobble by simply having some dirt or debris where the blade seats on the shaft. Doesn't take much at all.
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Unread 02-08-2022, 02:17 PM   #22
Steve in Denver
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I considered the issue of dirt/debris, and have been fairly careful about that. Also I'm measuring the wobble both on and off the saw and getting pretty consistent results.

4 blades so far, 0.007" - 0.017" of wobble/runout/planar deviation. (measured on a surface plate, so the saw is out of the equation) Surprisingly it was the Razor T3 blades that were the worst offenders.

So, either I'm unusually unlucky with the blades I have purchased, or this is normal. Absent any industry standard or manufacturers specs (I haven't found anything yet) I have to assume it's normal.

Since I'm getting the same measurements both on and off the saw my conclusion is that the saw isn't imparting any appreciable wobble. Is there anything else about the saw (other than bearing end-play and squareness of table motion to the blade) that could be causing the chipping?

I'm just trying to figure out if I have a good saw or a bad saw so I know whether or not to send it back.
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Unread 02-08-2022, 03:06 PM   #23
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I re-read all your posts in this thread and you don't say if you dressed the blade.
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Unread 02-08-2022, 03:14 PM   #24
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Excessive run-out doesn't sound line a blade dressing problem to me, Paul. What's your thinking there?
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Unread 02-08-2022, 04:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Excessive run-out doesn't sound line a blade dressing problem to me, Paul. What's your thinking there?
Mostly eliminating the basics.

But it seems very unlikely that you can buy 3 blades from 2 manufacturers and end up with 3 blades that are messed up the same way. And if you measure flatness by laying a blade on a flat metal plate, your measurements may be thrown off by nodules on the cutting rim of the blade which may be knocked down if you cut through a brick a few times.

Edit: I scrolled up a little and realized I keep posting the same thing about dressing the blade. Sorry, didn't mean to get on your case, Steve. I just keep losing track of what's happening in the thread.
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Unread 02-10-2022, 10:58 AM   #26
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To address the blade dressing issue:

No, I haven't tried that. Two reasons: I was trying to keep the blades as close to new as possible since I was returning them. Also since I had a clear runout problem I didn't think dressing the blade was a first order problem.

I have read in places that 0.005" runout on a table saw is considered to be the limit, but haven't found as many references to runout specs for a wet saw blade.

As to measuring runout on the rim where there are individual diamond flecks that stick up variable amounts, yes this does cause the dial indicator needle to jump around. However, as you measure around the rim you can get a sense of a trend in spite of the +/- 0.003" jumps that you see. Also I measured the blade just back from the cutting surface and observed the same runout trend. There is a clear "high spot" on the blade, and the readings are pretty consistent both in value and position in the blade.

Additionally I can clearly see the blade wobble as the saw slows down. I don't know if this is normal or if it indicates a problem.

Really it all comes back to that simple fact: I don't have enough experience to know if what I'm dealing with is normal or not.

I'm going to dress the DeWalt blade and see if that improves anything.

I'd be willing to ship the blade to someone with a "known good" saw so they could test how the blade does and give their opinion based on experience. If anyone is game, let me know.
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Unread 02-10-2022, 07:50 PM   #27
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Steve I just got a new Rigid 8 inch tile saw and I have the same issue in that the blade does wobble slightly when it slows down after I turn it off. However, my saw does not chip like yours does. It cuts very clean.
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Unread 02-11-2022, 02:47 PM   #28
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Thank, Elle, that helps.

I think I'm at a point where I'm ready to call it good. To be clear the chipping is better now than it was with the original DeWalt blade (original pictures). It's not excessive, but it's still there. I'm going to chalk that up to the lower quality (HD) tiles.
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Unread 02-12-2022, 08:18 AM   #29
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I'll post a pic of my tile cut when I get home so you can see what mine does with the original blade and that bit of wobble. I'm using a P4 blade on mine right now and I really like it.
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Unread 02-14-2022, 12:39 PM   #30
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Just a suggestion, but you might try using the "plunge" feature to allow the first cut to just barely cut into your tile...then go back with it locked down and slowly make your final cut. Might or might not help. I also think dressing the blade is a good idea......
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