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Unread 08-06-2009, 06:17 PM   #31
ih8caulk
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INgeborg,

Those vases are awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Makes me want to clank my knuckles against 'em just to hear the sound they'd make. (Actually, the devil in me would wanna tip one over just to see how thick the thickest & thinnest parts are. )

I'm almost sold on the ceramic tile being just fine, but I'm waiting for word back from a C-54 virtuoso I'm workin' with........ ..........to give the final thumbs up.

Another thing I've come to learn (based on what a Dal guy told me) is this......

Most assume that when a ceramic is chipped, it sucks because they're all white underneath unlike a porcelain which is color-thru.

Well, over the last 48 hours I've tipped about a chankrillion (that's a lot) ceramic and porcelain tiles on their backs & sides. Guess what........

Unless they're true color-body-thru tiles, the glaze is the only part that's really colored on ANY of them........ i.e. there are just as many ceramics out there with similar body colors similar to the glazed surface as there are porcelain.

(After I burn my bathroom to the ground, I'm going to the nearest block-long strip of tile stores and tipping over 10's of millions of tile displays, just to relieve some tension from all this "tileeeze" language/deception/confusion crap) It'll make me feel better, for sure.

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Unread 08-06-2009, 06:31 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
Most assume that when a ceramic is chipped, it sucks because they're all white underneath unlike a porcelain which is color-thru.
Not true at all, I am not aware of any GLAZED porcelain that is thru-body color. I don't know why you had a different impression.
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Unread 08-06-2009, 06:35 PM   #33
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Because many glazed tiles (not just porcelain as I mention having recently just found out) will have a "like" body color. (At least larger brands, though I saw it in some cheap ones too)

You may not get all the movement, vibrance, etc. but if you have, let's say, a "noce" type tile, some mfgrs will have it white underneath and others will have the majority color within the body. You chip a corner, the color underneath is still a "noce" type color.
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Unread 08-07-2009, 06:56 AM   #34
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I do not consider that "thru-body" color though.
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Unread 10-18-2009, 04:20 PM   #35
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Here is a picture of some Dahl tiles. The long one is supposedly a high fire stoneware and the little green tiles are porcelain, unglazed and I don't know what temp they were fired.

The picture shows the tiles on a plate in my bisque kiln before it was fired.

Would someone please humour me and tell me (again) how to make the file size smaller So I can actually enclose the file
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Unread 10-18-2009, 04:41 PM   #36
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With the latest forum software upgrade, it'll reduce the size of the pics for you. But if the file size is really large (somewhere in the 1MB -2MB size), it doesn't process it. In those cases, you need to reduce it with a program like Irfanview. Here's an article from the Liberry on Irfanview and how to post pics.
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Unread 10-18-2009, 06:10 PM   #37
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I use Picasa. It is googles photo program and it is free.
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Unread 10-18-2009, 07:45 PM   #38
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Here's the first picture: Before any firing Thanks for the help. How do you use Picasa with posting on this forum? I have an entire portfolio on Picasa from my China trip but just uploaded my regular pictures and they automatically downsize them I guess. How does it relate to this forum?

Just for the record, I did go to the Liberry to see how to downsize pictures but obviously I used the incorrect buz words as nothing came of it.
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Unread 10-18-2009, 07:53 PM   #39
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This picture is after the tiles were fired to ^05 in my electric kiln. It isn't quite obvious, but the glaze on the long Dahl tile has been changed: it is somewhat rough and the gloss has disappeared. The green porcelain tiles have changed color a bit but are otherwise the same.

The interesting part will happen when I refire them in the big gas kiln which I fire to ^10. You will be surprised at the difference in the long tile. I've never run the porcelain tile thru the dragon but will post pictures after the firing in a week or two. Stay tuned.
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Unread 10-19-2009, 03:52 PM   #40
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You know, I thought this was settled. Now if you're talking about making ceramics, be they porcelain, stoneware or softer bisque ware, whatever, cones are the jargon. Cones are little ceramic thingies that when they burn out they turn off the kiln. The process has nothing to do with how modern ceramic tiles are made.

Modern ceramic tiles -- production tiles that are made routinely and often -- are almost always pressed (dry pressed, dust pressed, ram pressed, whatever). And it does make a difference. The tiles are pressed to eliminate almost all of the water before the drying process and ultimately, the kiln firing. This produces dense tiles that incur less distortion during firing. Production kilns are never turned off unless they come to the end of a schedule or have to be worked on, etc., so cones have no use. We talk about degrees of heat, rate and duration. I can go on as I have been through a number of "tile" plants.

Almost all the tiles I install in showers these days are porcelain. Know why? Because 90 percent of what is out there is porcelain (.5 or less absorption rate) or near-porcelain (claimed to be porcelain but with a higher than allowed absorption rate). I use floor tiles in the showers I build.

It does make a difference, even when using a membrane such as Kerdi. Because they are so dense (vitrified) porcelain tiles dry much faster than softer tiles, and in a shower this is a good thing. A dry shower does not, can not, nurture mold. I recommend porcelain tiles to all my customers.

Before the popularity of porcelain tiles, the big seller was a tile that was "single-fired" -- "monocoturra." Daltile, Interceramic, and a few other large producers still make this type of tile. They are softer than porcelain tiles, and to me this makes them inferior. Daltile, for example, makes a special line of these tiles for Home Depot. You can't buy them even at a Daltile store. They also make lines for sale in their own stores that are not much better than the tiles they make for Home Depot.

So given the choice between a Daltile "ceramic" tile and a Chinese porcelain, I'll go for the Chinese porcelain IF its absorption rate is .5 or less. Otherwise, it's not a porcelain at all for our purposes.

Last edited by John Bridge; 10-19-2009 at 04:06 PM.
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Unread 10-19-2009, 06:55 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bridge
Cones are little ceramic thingies that when they burn out they turn off the kiln. The process has nothing to do with how modern ceramic tiles are made.
Well John, hate to do this, but you have a fundamental misunderstanding of cones. Yes, in older (or cheaper) electric kilns, they are turned off by the cones. And in most gas fired kilns there are cones placed in the kiln for visual spotting. And I also believe that they send cones though some production kilns as a check.
They are not a mere temperature "switch", what they are actually doing is measuring heat work. Cones, like clay and glazes, changes according to heat work, which is heat applied over time, not a certain max temperature. You can fire fast to a higher temperature, or slower to a low temperature, and get the same results (mostly). What modern "potters" kilns and large production kilns do now is use pyrometers to measure the heat in the kiln, then apply mathmatical equations to figure out what "cone" the kiln reaches. So even though most of us don't use a lot of cones, everything is still measured in them. A straight temperature reading for a kiln firing is almost worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bridge
Modern ceramic tiles -- production tiles that are made routinely and often -- are almost always pressed (dry pressed, dust pressed, ram pressed, whatever). And it does make a difference. The tiles are pressed to eliminate almost all of the water before the drying process and ultimately, the kiln firing.
That has little to do with moisture content. All "free" water is driven off before firing any ceramic material. If not it goes boom when it starts to boil. The pressing has more to do with ease of manufacturing.

Quote:
This produces dense tiles that incur less distortion during firing.
Yes, more dense clay does result in less ditortion during firing, but I do not see what this has to do with the argument about true porcelain, or cones.


Quote:
Production kilns are never turned off unless they come to the end of a schedule or have to be worked on, etc., so cones have no use
No, not as a device to turn a kiln off, but the same holds true for most kilns now. But they can and are still used as a calibration device.

The issue us potters are having is that what the Tile industry calls "pocelain" is not what has fit the standard definition of "porcelain" for hundreds and hundreds of years. And I think "real" porcelain has an absorbency rate much lower than .5%, since it is almost a glass.
I agree that "industry porcelain" is good, and much better than lower grade ceramic. Just call it something else, call it what it is, it just aint porcelain.

The point the Indeborg is trying to make with re-firing the tiles is that if you stuck real porcelain in a cone 05 kiln, nothing would happen. The fact that something is proves that the tiles are not as vitrified as true porcelain. Which means not as dense and not as hard (for the most part).

It may be the case that true porcelain doesn't make good tile. It does tend to shrink and warp a lot when fired. I just don't like how the industry "borrowed" the term porcelain to use as a marketing term. It kind of belittles the true qualities of real porcelain. And it isn't just a "hardness thing. The right glaze on a good porcelain has a quality nothing else can match.



much love John
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Unread 10-19-2009, 09:14 PM   #42
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Oh My John,

I certainly meant no offense and I defer to you when it comes to factory made tiles. I also know they are dry pressed and that is the most efficient way to keep things from warping. I have never implied I was the expert. I must admit I have never been to a tile producing factory where they run kilns 24 hours continuously. I have though been to potteries where they run kilns 24 hours as in Van Briggle Pottery in Colorado Springs. It is actually where I got my inspiration many moons ago to move into this venue. They had kilns that ran continuously from drying to bisque to finish and cooled and off to the sales room. The process was very intriguing and cost effective in a large operation.

The little thingies you mention we call pyrometric cones and they measure time and heat and in our field are referred to as heat works. I believe they are actually used in most industrial applications as well but many operations may have calibrated their firing to coincide with the cones. Most of us have elaborate and expensive pyrometers to measure temperature (I do) but that is just part of the story. They do not disintegrate ( if they do we have way over fired - not a good thing) but bend and tell us when the wares and glazes are mature and the kiln is ready to shut off. My kiln does not just shut off by itself. Regretfully, I have to sit and manage the burners for 12 - 14 hours . I make a judgment call (not always correct) to turn the burners off.

I didn't realize this thread was closed. If so I will certainly not post any more pictures on this subject but I would ask that you go back thru the thread where I said I would post pictures when I fired the tiles. I was only following thru on my promise. Sorry I'm that kind of lady, following thru with what I say. As for porcelain tiles, I am certain they are wonderful, for my taste they leave much to be desired aesthetically, and really John, if a tile is installed properly, don't you really think it will last? I saw earthenware tiles used on outdoor applications in Southern Spain and they have been in place for many many years. So doesn't it come down to choice, as in aesthetics and of course price and installation.

My only point was that distributors should present their products as they are and if they don't know all of the specifics, it is really alright to say "I don 't know" instead of making up stories like the Dahl tile guy did. As for porcelain tiles used for flooring, well I am certain they are great but so are high fired stoneware tiles which are not a lot different in absorption rates. In my way of thinking, they are well more interesting. It is just a personal opinion of course. People seem to get really hung up on the word "porcelain" and generally they don't have a clue about what that means. I read a lot on this forum and it is always is it porcelain or is it ceramic. ALL OF IT IS CERAMIC. I am not referring to you sir just speaking in generalities.

Peace.
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Unread 10-19-2009, 09:20 PM   #43
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A fun fact:

Orton, the company that makes all pyrometric cones (as far as I know) is the only non-profit manufacturing company in the U.S.. Shortly after it was formed the Congress passed a law outlawing such entities. Apparently it is un-American to make stuff and not make money at the same time.

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Unread 10-19-2009, 09:31 PM   #44
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You want real porcelain ...

Purchase and install material that is TCNA certified as porcelain.
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Unread 10-19-2009, 09:32 PM   #45
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Did you read any of this thread???
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