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Unread 08-04-2009, 06:31 PM   #16
cx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingeborg
Personally I would pick the type of tile that I really like and one that fits my budget. Ask them if it will work in your particular installation/use and make sure you install it according to specs. In other words, if the tile is recommended for floors only then don't put it on the walls, ask all of the pertinent information and then go for it.
I would argue only a little about that, Ingeborg. Any tile that is specified for use on floors is quite acceptable for installation on walls.

The obverse is not necessarily true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
Also that their ceramic is 250psi tested. (Dunno what their porcelain is)
Gotta be careful, and very specific in order to sort some of that out, Randy. If those boxes say they contain a floor tile, and say they comply with A137.1, they will average a breaking strength of 250psi or greater. No matter who's tile it is. And if it says it's a porcelain tile, the breaking strength will be 250psi or greater. No matter who's tile it is.

As for classification of the tiles, that's changed a bit fairly recently. But, again, if the box says A137.1 on it, it should also say P1, P2, P3, or P4 if it's a pressed tile, E and a number for Extruded tiles, and O with a number if it's something Other.

Boxes with A137.1 on'em will tell you what's s'posta be inside. Salesman may tell you anything, eh?

My opinion; worth price charged.


My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 08-05-2009, 03:45 PM   #17
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Okee dokee.............not being one to disappoint.......

Spoke at-length today w/ a Dal tech:

To be most specific I told him I was looking at the Salerno series tile.....

http://daltileproducts.com/series.cfm?series=222&rm=4 If you search for it, you'll see a little water-droplet by the series and when you hover over it with the mouse it says "recommended for shower pans". (Sounds like they *want* it to be used in a shower environment?)

Anyway, that webpage shows the PE and COF (both rated highest possible)

Here's what else he said........

Most Dal porcelains are fired at 2,000F degrees.

He said that unlike other folks, Dal fires their CERAMIC Mosaics and Floor tiles at anywhere between 1,900 and 2,000 degrees ALSO while wall tiles are fired at 1,600.

Moisture absorption rating for Salerno is 2%. (He said that's better than most ceramics, and that, yes, porcelain is .5% but if I'm doing a Kerdi shower, not only is 2% very low, but there ain't even no reason to worry about even a 20% M.A.R. tile.)

Only other thing he said is that ceramics are typically surface-color-only, but that most big-box store porcelains are like that too whereas bigger brand names (like Dal) are color-thru unless specifically stated.

Only thing I forgot to ask him was, Pressed/Extruded/Other, but I'm assuming these are pressed.

So now whadda y'all thaank???
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Unread 08-05-2009, 04:07 PM   #18
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I am sorry, but anything fired at only 2000 deg. is not a porcelain. I don't care what they call it, it just isn't. Even though it is a temp and not cone that they give(cones measure heat work not just temp, which is what is important for ceramic material), that is in the low fire range.

I am not saying it is crap, but no way it has the strength and vitrification of a true porcelain.

I don't mind bending definitions a bit. But if you adopt a word that has meaning to it, you can't go and change that meaning to fit your needs. If they only go to 2000 deg. they should not call it porcelain, I don't care what Tile Industry standards are.

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Unread 08-05-2009, 06:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
I am not saying it is crap, but no way it has the strength and vitrification of a true porcelain.
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Unread 08-05-2009, 08:25 PM   #20
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OK, so as my vision is slowly being shattered in pieces all over my empty bathroom floor............


Which would you prefer for your OWN master bath/shower/room:


Chinese Porcelain??

or

American Ceramic??

Remember to be delicate.......I'm in a fragile state 'bout now.
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Unread 08-05-2009, 08:35 PM   #21
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Randy,

I would tend to agree with Gregg, aka muddman. That said, porcelain or stoneware or low fire ware it just isn't all that important in my opinion. 1600 degrees is very very low fire, that is soft and will not be very durable in the long haul. True vitrified porcelain is fired beyond 2000 degrees farenheit we are talking about.

Now, you really shouldn't be so concerned about is it ram pressed, is it extruded etc. It really makes no difference in the greater scheme of things. I make tiles and sometimes I extrude other times I hand cut them. I happen not to have a ram press so I don't do that. It all depends on the type of clay and the vitrification point of that said clay. All of those things are different ways to produce a product. Each has its problems in the production process..none which should concern you in your application.

I have two Dahl tile products installed in my home. One is a stoneware they claimed to be high fired, which it was not....it is still a great product just not what they said it was. I also have a "porcelain" tile they made and it is the pits IMHO. It stains, is difficult to keep clean and just lacks the pazzass that a tile should have. My better half decided he wanted these silly porcelain tiles against my better judgement.....so I have them because I ike to win the war not the battles

My suggestion is, Pick the type of tile you like that fits your decor and your budget. Forget what they say about porcelain or ceramic...they are all ceramic. Install them according to their specs..in other words don't put a wall tile on the floor and everything will work out. If they are low fired to 1600 degrees they will most likely not last for 2000 years. But will you enjoy them for your lifetime...probably.

I wish you good luck with your tile selection and installation process. Enjoy them, tiles are a great product compared to carpeting or other similar products and are cheaper in the long run. Hire a qualified installer and you will be that much further ahead.
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Unread 08-05-2009, 08:49 PM   #22
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boxes and ratings

CX,

You are obviously very versed in the product labeling process of which I am clueless. I still have the boxes of my Dahl Tiles - both the procelain and the stoneware. I am going to check out the ratings on what exactly the boxes say just for giggles. You really have my interest piqued.
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Unread 08-05-2009, 09:08 PM   #23
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Randy,

I just reread your previous posts and I'm sorry to say if I had to choose Chinese porcelain over Amercian porcelain I would chose the Chinese. They may not know much about sheet rock or lead paint or lead toys but they clearly understand porcelain; it is part of their history and national heritage if you will. They invented porcelain thousands of years ago while the rest of the world (Europe at that time) was living in the dark ages. Jing de Zen is the porcelain capitol of China.
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Unread 08-05-2009, 09:32 PM   #24
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Ingeborg,

Actually, my question was (unless you *meant* to type "ceramic")..........

Would you choose Chinese Porcelain or American Ceramic???

(i.e. would the fact that porcelain is stronger/tougher/more durable, etc. outweigh the fact that it's made in China vs a.....errr......lesser product like ceramic, even though it's made in America??)

And FYI (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) the general understanding is that Chinese tile is "cheap" (price and quality) compared to American or Italian or xxx

??????

Thx for your feedback. I definitely appreciate it, even if it makes me want to burn my bathroom to the ground!
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Unread 08-05-2009, 09:39 PM   #25
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Just because it is made in china doesn't mean it will be better. They are importing it to the US, and probably use the same guidlines for calling it "porcelain" as a US company would. I may be wrong though.

I think I will always put "porcelain" in quotes from now on when talking about tile.
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Unread 08-06-2009, 10:34 AM   #26
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Anybody else???

Chinese Porcelain vs American Ceramic???


And unless somebody wants to correct my ignorance, I'm DEFINITELY assuming that Chinese (as we sell it here in the states, anyway) would be the LESSER QUALITY tile because we're talking "cheap-Chinese", not "ancient- Chinese-secret", Chinese.

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Unread 08-06-2009, 10:40 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
And unless somebody wants to correct my ignorance, I'm DEFINITELY assuming that Chinese (as we sell it here in the states, anyway) would be the LESSER QUALITY tile because we're talking "cheap-Chinese", not "ancient- Chinese-secret", Chinese.
Randy, again, when it comes to ceramic tiles, the only thing that will help you determine definitively what is in that box is a label saying it complies with ANSI A137.1.

If it says that, you can determine with a good bit of accuracy what properties the tile has.

If it doesn't say that, you know only what the manufacturer claims.

Keep in mind that one "ancient Chinese secret" is the ability to keep a straight face while selling products. This secret has been learned and copied by many American manufacturers as well. That's why standards have been adopted. Tile made in America or tile made in China that has passed the testing required under A137.1 for its type gonna be all-same-same, yes?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 08-06-2009, 11:45 AM   #28
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And again....thanks cx.....however.......

Tryin' to pry more into the cx that would buy a car at a dealer vs the cx that'd be layin' a mean-lookin' terracotta on a Tuesday......

This -----> http://www.tileusa.com/PressRel2009/ANSIA137 ------ doesn't tell me what you'd prefer on a Saturday afternoon drivin' back & forth between a couple tile stores trying to decide what tile you'd be MOST CONFIDENT IN with a wife all up your back diggin' & clawin' like a wild cougar landed in the middle of downtown L.A. in rush hour traffic.

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Unread 08-06-2009, 04:42 PM   #29
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Randy,

Please don't burn your bathroom. You may have noticed that us potters get a bit riled when people get into conversations about ceramic vs. porcelain. We are very sensitive people and get our knickers in a major twist.

I don't have a clue if Chinese tiles are better than American or Italian. I do know the Chinese understand porcelain and clay in general. It is sort of their heritage since they have been producing all sorts of clay items, mostly porcelain for centuries.

Chinese make a lot of junk but in their defense they also make a lot of quality products. (just for the record, I resent all of our jobs and products going to China but that is another story) Mostly, we just don't see the quality products. You can go to Walmart and buy a bike under $100 of course made in China., When it breaks, you throw it away. You can buy a bike at a bike shop for $500 and up and it is made in China and you can repair it. Or you can buy a bike for $20 K made in the US of Carbon fiber.

I haven't been to a classy tile shop in quite a while. I believe there was one in Naples, FL but that was 10 years ago. So I really can't tell you what kind of tile to buy. Most of the "cheap" tiles sold in Home Depot are not porcelain and some come from China and others from the US. Even so, they serve a function.

CX is the expert on labeling. I would follow his advice in that area. I have no clue. I still go back to my original post.....buy what you like and can fit into your budget.

From a personal standpoint, I prefer stoneware tiles other than porcelain. I like tiles that are glazed. I think they are easier to keep clean and I like the appearance. Just my opinion.

Here's a picture of "real" porcelain made in China. Just for the record I am 5'4 1/2 inches tall. It is quite a place, JingDeZhen China the porcelain capitol of China.

Best wishes and send us a picture of the tile you finally choose.
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Unread 08-06-2009, 05:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingeborg
CX is the expert on labeling.
Nope, CX only points out what is written in the ANSI Specifications For Ceramic Tile, A137.1.

Get you a copy of that particular Standard and you can be just as "expert."


Chinese got big pots.
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