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Unread 01-29-2020, 07:53 PM   #1
Husky546
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Shower Installation

Hey guys I’m new to the thread and relatively new to the Tile world which I’m sure will be obvious with what I’m about to ask. And I’m sure this same thing has been asked many times so I apologize for any redundancy.

So basically I finally am remodeling my 1960s basement bathroom and I am to the point of waterproofing and hanging durarock. But I have gotten stuck as far as how to properly waterproof the shower. Here is my set up to this point

2x4 framing against the cement wall

3 inches of closed cell foam board between the studs leaving 1/4-1/2 inch of airspace between the insulation and what will be the backside of the duration

Foamboard is caulked in tight to the studs so I avoid any air leaks

I have purchased durarock for my backer

So now I come to the point of a waterproofing system and from my understanding there are 2 options #1 a plastic sheet against the studs behind the durarock or #2 a red guard or similar on the front side

From my understanding you should use one or the other but never both is this correct or am I misunderstanding the concept? And for those of you with experience what do you recommend for my situation. I’m not worried about water coming in from the outside as I am a poured foundation and the old bathroom was all built with non treated lumber that was still in perfect condition when it was torn out. But with that being said I don’t want to introduce a water situation from a shower that is built wrong

Also for what it’s worth I would like to use an epoxy grout unless that is an issue anyone sees

Thanks again for any advice. I can post photos if needed
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Unread 01-29-2020, 08:14 PM   #2
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Welcome, Nick.

A geographic location in your User Profile is frequently helpful, as are photos of your project area.
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3 inches of closed cell foam board between the studs leaving 1/4-1/2 inch of airspace between the insulation and what will be the backside of the duration
Not understanding where your air space will be.

I believe the product you wanna use for your walls is Durock. That correct?

What is your plan for the shower receptor? That's the most critical part of your shower construction.
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Unread 01-30-2020, 05:54 AM   #3
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I am close to Canada so very cold winters. As far as the airspace I am referring to if you picture a stud wall the studs are 3 1/2 inches deep the foam in between is 3 inches so the foam won’t be touching the durarock (airspace may not be the best way to explain it)

I do plan to use durarock a backer

When you say receptor what are you referring to
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Unread 01-30-2020, 05:57 AM   #4
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I’m assuming your talking about the base. In that case I’m going to use the goof proof system. A pitched mud base then a rubber membrane on top followed by a final pitched concrete base then tile
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Unread 01-30-2020, 10:07 AM   #5
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Quote:
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A geographic location in your User Profile is frequently helpful
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I believe the product you wanna use for your walls is Durock. That correct?
You keep saying "durarock," Nick, and I'm trying to determine whether you mean Durock or something with which I'm not familiar.

By receptor I was referring to the bottom of your shower, the part that directs the water to a drain, sometimes called the pan. From your description it appears you'll be doing a traditional mud/liner/mud receptor, which is fine when done correctly. I'm a bit concerned about your reference to a "rubber membrane," though. I'm familiar with PVC and CPE liners for that application, but not rubber. Possible that there are such that are approved for your application and I'm just not familiar. A link to your product would help.

In any case, I'd recommend against use of those plastic divider strips. They may not cause any harm in the pre-slope (the mud bed under the liner), but I really don't favor the idea of putting plastic dividers in the final mud bed to show the mud or/and tile where to crack.
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...followed by a final pitched concrete base then tile
It's not concrete you want there at all, you want that top layer to be what the trade calls deck mud or floor mud or mortar. Perhaps you know what it is and didn't mean to call it concrete?

If your air gap is directly behind the CBU walls, and that air gap is vented, I would think you could use either the moisture barrier behind or the direct bonded waterproofing membrane on the face of your CBU walls.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-30-2020, 10:28 AM   #6
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Sorry for the confusion this is me using terms for stuff that is not correct. By durarock I’m referring to traditional cement board by rubber liner I mean traditional pvc sheeting and by cement I also mean traditional methods for a standard mud bed. So I think we are on the same page as far as how to set up the pan.

However when referring to the cement board walls I have heard using traditional plastic sheeting behind the cement board in combination with painting on a rubber membrane on top you can effectively seal the cement board so no water can escape if it does in fact get through somewhere which can lead to mold issues etc. Am I correct in thinking that or not? And what is you preferred method
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Unread 01-30-2020, 10:30 AM   #7
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As far as the air gap behind the wall it wouldn’t be vented per se but it is open to the rim joist etc. I can post a few photos tonight to help visualize the setup
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Unread 01-30-2020, 10:38 AM   #8
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You are correct in your thinking about not wanting a serious vapor retarder on both sides of your cementitious wallboards, Nick. At least in my opinion. You want to use one method or the other, but not both.

And either one is a satisfactory method of water containment when properly executed and each has its advantages and disadvantages. Were I to do a traditional shower receptor, I'd most likely put a vapor retarder material behind the wallboard as my water containment method.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-30-2020, 11:08 AM   #9
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Ok good glad I’m on the right page thanks for the advice. Now you mentioned not using those leave in screed sticks like those in a goof proof system due to the possibility of cracking which I hadn’t considered. Really the only reason I was even drawn to the system was getting to correct pitch.

How do you feel about using those screeds as a rough guide but pulling them out after you have the pitch and filling in the space? Of course In this context I am referring to using them as screed guides and pulling them out and filling when the mud bed is still wet. Not letting it set up and filling in after the fact. Essentially using them as a rough guide to get going then finishing in a more traditional sense
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Unread 01-30-2020, 01:16 PM   #10
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Don't think them helpful in any capacity at all as they are designed, Nick. The plastic sticks for the pre-slope do not provide for a level shower floor perimeter unless you happen to be building a round shower. The final mud bed sticks exacerbate that problem while also not providing the consistent thickness of a minimum of 1 1/2" required by the tile industry standards.

I assure you that you can do such mud beds quite adequately in two attempts or fewer and while you might decide you want some sort of guide strips around the perimeter, I think you'll find at least by your second try that simply packing a perimeter mud screed to a level line on the walls will provide all the guiding you need.

The material is dirt cheap and the labor is free and doing a test bed before your actual shower would give you all the practice you need. Make you a four sided box with some old 2x4s and have at it. You don't even hafta mix cement with your damp sand for the practice sessions unless you want to see what the final product looks like.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-30-2020, 01:41 PM   #11
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I wish I would have found this site a month ago I would have saved lots of cash on a kit I now won’t use. As long as we are on the topic of mud beds I could use a second piece of guidance.

My drain is on a concrete floor and the drain itself now sits level with the slab. Is there a trick in this situation to get your prepitch to hold together right next to the drain as at this point it would taper to basically nothing and I suspect it would crumble.

If not I’m at a point where I could certainly jack up a tiny piece of the floor and raise the drain up a bit and bring the pre pitch up to the drain if that makes sense.
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Unread 01-30-2020, 03:02 PM   #12
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Not sure just how a fella would "jack up" a bit of a concrete SOG floor, nor how that might help your situation, Nick. Perhaps you can better 'splain me?

There is no real standard for making a pre-slope under a shower receptor liner. It's not part of the tile installation, it's part of the plumbing and I know of no actual requirements in the plumbing code except that it be there.

You could use deck mud for the majority of your sloped floor down to where it gets thinner than about half an inch and use some sort of cementitious patching compound between that area and the drain. I do believer our friend Davy has said in past he's used some thinset mortar with his deck mud to screed it down to very thin sections.

You're correct that you gotta ensure that part doesn't crumble later, whatever method or material you use. The only real requirement is that the pre-slope be sturdy enough to meet the requirements of the shower floor and that it be flat and properly sloped.

The alternative, of course, would be to chisel out the existing drain and install another at a more acceptable height. I'd be for finishing my slope with a patching material were it mine.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-30-2020, 03:07 PM   #13
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Jacking being jack hammering. I own a small one and may end up moving the drain to be a tad more centered anyways (wife changed her mind and wanted the shower bigger after I plumbed initially) I guess if I did that I could kill two birds with one stone. Re center my drain and run the pre slope up to the level of the new drain versus fighting it down to nothing and risk it falling apart
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Unread 01-30-2020, 03:14 PM   #14
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Sounds like the better plan to me, Nick.

And here I was hoping you'd found a magic way to make poured concrete rise to the level needed after curing. Hoping you'd share so we could both become very, very wealthy.
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Unread 01-30-2020, 03:21 PM   #15
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You never really said you were building a shower. Is that what you are trying to construct?

Is there any kind of drain roughed in there? Is the a P trap underground? What size is the pipe? Is this a floor drain? Is anything currently draining to it now? Please post a pic if you can of the current drain.

It doesn't matter if the Durock board touches the foam or not. You only fasten it to the studs. Just make sure you have enough insulation in there. I am in Wisconsin and have 2in of closed cell foam on the outside of the walls, 2.5in of open cell but foil faced foam on the inside, then the 2x4 wall with fiberglass batts. You can never go too little insulation, the ground/wall is a big heat sink.

You need to figure out what kind of drain and shower floor structure you want. Make your own, foam tray, tiled floor, fiberglass floor, etc. Let us know what you want to use.
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