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Unread 01-24-2016, 12:27 PM   #1
quinocampa
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Ghibli Bathroom for Kids

Hello Friends,
I was a regular on here in 2009-10. Glad to be back with a new project.
This is a renovation of my kids' bathroom. This is a simpler project, and I have more experience, so hopefully I'll have fewer questions!

I've gutted the bathroom, except for the tub. At the corner of the tub, there is some rot in the subfloor and into at least one sole plate.

I will need to pull the tub to get a full survey of the floor. It's a basic, builder's quality tub from 1988. It has hex head screws fastened into studs, just above the tub's flange to hold it down in place -- easily removed.

But how is the tub attached to the drain? This should be my only other connection, correct?
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Unread 01-24-2016, 05:09 PM   #2
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Welcome back, Daniel!

Yes, besides the screws connecting the tiling flange to the studs, the only other typical connections are to the plumbing drain.

The tub is connected to the drain system via a "drain assembly". The drain assembly is an "L" shaped series of pipes that connects to both the bottom drain hole and the side overflow hole. The metal tub drain you can see at the bottom of the tub essentially looks like an upside-down top hat and screws down into the drain assembly, capturing and sealing to the drain hole. If you don't have any access to the bottom side of the tub, one of your few (and easiest) options is to unscrew it. Find and purchase what is known as a "smart dumbbell" in the plumbing section.

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It will fit down into the drain and over the crosshairs where you can use a wrench or screwdriver to twist it counter-clockwise. If the crosshairs in your drain happen to be rusted out, you'll need a different tool than the smart dumbbell. You'll need an expanding drain remover tool that cams out and locks onto the smooth inside wall of the drain. One such tool goes by the name of "Golden Extractor".

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There is a toothed cam on the gizmo that bites into the inside of the drain as you spin it out. Again, look in the plumbing section. If they don't sell one, you may have to visit a plumbing supply.

The second half of the drain assembly connects to the tub's "overflow" hole. Remove the trim plate to this hole (couple visible screws) and you're likely to see two more screws that use an arc-shaped metal plate to capture the overflow hole. Remove these screws and pry the pipe back away from the tub. It's likely to be corroded and the rubber gasket sticking to the tub a bit.

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Unread 01-25-2016, 08:16 PM   #3
quinocampa
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Hi Bubba,
Thanks for your detailed reply. I remember you from before, good to know the forum continues to be in good hands!

Okay, I have seen the cross-intact wrench, and a different kind of extractor that essentially does the same thing as the tool you show for the broken cross scenario.

Are you saying that, by extracting this piece of tub hardware, that it will also be unscrewing from the PVC drain pipe below? I have found that I have some access. The tub is shorter than the wall length, so a corner was built to close the gap. I have removed some of that drywall, and there is enough space for me to fit back there. Thankfully I'm not a large man!

The drywall adjacent to the tub at the foot end impedes the tub's removal. The tub is a very snug fit into its space. I need to pull the tub to repair the floor, but I really hoped I wouldn't have to remove more drywall to do it. Such a pain. Well, the drywall is going to get tiled, so I don't have to be too particular about finishing it nicely with mud...
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Unread 01-25-2016, 08:39 PM   #4
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The drain and overflow should be the only connections to the tub. If you have to take out some sheetrock to remove the tub, that's the breaks. Replacing it to tile over it is not a difficult task.
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Unread 01-25-2016, 11:43 PM   #5
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Can you give us a picture from a little further back showing the whole tub? It may help with suggestions on the logistics of easiest removal & replacement.

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Unread 01-29-2016, 03:51 PM   #6
quinocampa
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Thanks Bubba and Kevin,
I have not worked on the rot issue yet. It'll be another week until I can get to it. I agree now to remove any drywall impeding the tub's movement. It just has to be done, and again, since I'm tiling any new drywall, it is easy enough to screw up the new stuff and be done.

Meanwhile, I am thinking about the proper way to build the wall surround without Kerdi (cost, time savings), so the classic way. The tub is enamel over metal, typical for 1980's. The home builder installed the drywall over and down the tub flange, nearly touching the tub's horizontal edge. I read in a post on here from 2005 that it's better for the board to remain above the flange. The builder also did not use a vapor barrier. I've seen here that it is advised to use plastic sheet behind the board. And finally, I am going to use Hardi, and not drywall like the builder used.

I must note though that, after 28 years, there was nothing wrong with the tile-on-drywall installation. He may have even used mastic. It didn't look like thinset. But whatever, I like Hardi.

So...from the 2005 post, I stole this image. Again, I have a metal tub, not fiberglass as the OP's image says. Tell me if it is right or wrong. And if right, don't you worry about bumping and chipping the bottom row of tiles because of the gap between flange and tile??
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Granite tile kitchen counters
Granite/slate bathroom -- first JB-guided job. Very nice!
(4) granite window seats -- look great, holding up well
Fireplace -- Slate facade and mantel, granite hearth
Bar counter -- slate insets with oak surround

Last edited by quinocampa; 01-29-2016 at 03:57 PM.
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Unread 01-29-2016, 11:22 PM   #7
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No because we use soft spacers to hold the bottom row of tiles off the tub surface while the thinset cures.

The diagram is correct but add thinset behind the tile and before the sheet plastic to fill the void
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Unread 02-03-2016, 03:17 PM   #8
quinocampa
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Cutting Large Porcelain Tiles

Thanks Paul for the above response on the illustration.

For my floor, I will be working with 20x20 porcelain tiles. I have a Harbor Freight wet saw with a rail-guided table that runs under the blade. 20x20 is more than a little bigger than the table, presenting problems while cutting.

On previous projects with large tiles, I have cut into a tile as far as I can, then flipped it over to cut the other side. One problem is getting it realigned to the first cut. Also, I can't use an edge guide to stay parallel to an edge, so I try to follow a marked line. Not ideal.

While laying down hardwood, at the entry to my tiled kitchen, I had to trim some of that tile. So I bought a diamond blade for my circular saw. If I recall correctly, there are relief cuts on the blade, presumably for heat management. I have been considering using that saw and blade on the porcelain, cutting it dry. It would be easier to set up a guide and cut without flipping. I don't have any other tile cutting tools such as a bench grinder, nibblers, or Rubi tile cutter.

Thoughts?
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Granite tile kitchen counters
Granite/slate bathroom -- first JB-guided job. Very nice!
(4) granite window seats -- look great, holding up well
Fireplace -- Slate facade and mantel, granite hearth
Bar counter -- slate insets with oak surround
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Unread 03-29-2016, 02:38 PM   #9
quinocampa
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Tub Surround Perimeter Caulking

I am finishing up bathroom infrastructure at this time. In April, I will replace the tub I removed, and, if following above advice, apply the 6 mil vapor barrier, and then Durock on top of that.

So, once tiled and grouted, and I'm ready to apply the bottom line of caulk, is that not going to trap any permeated vapor to condense and drip down the vapor barrier, only to settle in the thinset at the bottom row of tile, between the barrier and the outer caulk?

I just read a couple people advising to leave holes or gaps in the caulk line (?!) to permit an exit path for that condensed vapor!

The original tub surround tile installation lasted 28 years on either green board or drywall. No vapor barrier. No CBU. Probably adhered with mastic, by the looks of it, and not thinset. The labor and material cost to install the 6 mil is not a problem, but it seems unlikely that vapor would get back there. And if it does, I'm just, ultimately, trapping it along the bottom edge behind the caulk!

I'm looking for the reasoning here.
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Granite tile kitchen counters
Granite/slate bathroom -- first JB-guided job. Very nice!
(4) granite window seats -- look great, holding up well
Fireplace -- Slate facade and mantel, granite hearth
Bar counter -- slate insets with oak surround
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Unread 03-29-2016, 02:45 PM   #10
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"I'm looking for the reasoning here. "

As am I, so will be watching the replies.
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Unread 03-29-2016, 03:13 PM   #11
quinocampa
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One poster in another place says the moisture can eventually evaporate back out the grout lines, which are the most porous of the external materials (glazed ceramic, silicone caulk, sanded grout). I know that we're talking minute amounts of vapor.

I was pleased during demo that I didn't see any mold. However, the stud bays run to the floor, where there are voids under the frame of the tub. Then, there is a hole in the subfloor around the tub drain that leads to the joist bay separating 1st and 2nd floors. So, there was plenty of space for vapor to expand and escape, or dry, before spawning mold. I mean, it happened for 28 years.
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Granite tile kitchen counters
Granite/slate bathroom -- first JB-guided job. Very nice!
(4) granite window seats -- look great, holding up well
Fireplace -- Slate facade and mantel, granite hearth
Bar counter -- slate insets with oak surround
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Unread 03-29-2016, 03:20 PM   #12
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Lemme know if you have any success in your argument, Daniel. I been arguing against the procedure of using a flexible sealant in that joint for many years without much success. Only geographic area in which you'll find much agreement seems to be northern California for reasons not at all clear to me.

The use of roofing felt as a moisture barrier behind your CBU walls, rather than polyethylene sheeting, will alleviate the problem somewhat, but also defeats some of the ability of the moisture barrier to keep water vapor out of the wall cavity, something to be avoided in today's tighter houses.

On your organic adhesive (mastic) question, I can only say that the organic adhesives of 30 years ago were much different than those of today and it was once the practice to coat the entire surface of the drywall with the adhesive and let it dry before setting the tiles with the same material. Some of them lasted quite well, others not so much.

One day there will be a better procedure adopted by the industry for the treatment of that bottom tile joint. You'll not wanna be holding your breath, though.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-04-2016, 03:09 PM   #13
quinocampa
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Caulking CBU

As you can see in early posts, I had to replace some subfloor due to rotting from infiltrating water. I am nearing the stage where I will put down my CBU on the floor. I plan to leave about 1/8" gap adjacent to walls and the tub.

I know that I will caulk the perimeter once the tiles are down. However, is it a good idea to caulk the perimeter just after putting down the CBU? My logic is that the caulk will more easily penetrate between the CBU and wall board, perhaps even reaching the wood sill plates. Then apply a 2nd time after the floor tiles have been applied, reaching from the first application of caulk up to the tile surface.

My goal is maximum insurance of water penetration around the tub, and at the walls around the toilet in case it ever overflows.
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Daniel
History
Granite tile kitchen counters
Granite/slate bathroom -- first JB-guided job. Very nice!
(4) granite window seats -- look great, holding up well
Fireplace -- Slate facade and mantel, granite hearth
Bar counter -- slate insets with oak surround
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Unread 04-04-2016, 04:02 PM   #14
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Daniel, if you don't intend to apply a waterproofing membrane over your CBU on the floor, you'll be wasting your time caulking around the edges. And really, if you don't plan to run your waterproofing membrane up the wall a couple inches, you're mostly wasting your time waterproofing the floor. Then, of course, it could be argued that unless you put some sort of barrier across the entry door and waterproof that, you're still wasting your time trying to waterproof the floor.

Using a waterproofing membrane for a couple feet outside the tub area, 'specially when children are involved, may buy you a little time to clean up serious splash-out, but beyond that I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to waterproof a bathroom floor.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-05-2016, 10:07 AM   #15
quinocampa
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Thank you for your input, CX. I assume your statements reflect the semi-porous nature of CBU? I'll be using 1/4" Hardibacker on the floor. The previous flooring had linoleum over luan. One previous homeowner added adhesive vinyl tiles over that. Both allowed water to leak into the gaps, soak the OSB subfloor, and dry too slowly to avoid the rot I found. In fact, there had been no usage for a couple weeks when I began demolition, yet I still found the sill plate and surrounding OSB to be wet. I cannot recall now, but I believe the caulk at the tub perimeter and adjacent wall on the faucet end were poorly installed or otherwise compromised.

Basically, I want to avoid that leak path. I think further away from the tub edge won't really see much water. Additionally, I'm installing a semi-frameless glass door / wall instead of using the previous shower curtain.
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History
Granite tile kitchen counters
Granite/slate bathroom -- first JB-guided job. Very nice!
(4) granite window seats -- look great, holding up well
Fireplace -- Slate facade and mantel, granite hearth
Bar counter -- slate insets with oak surround
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