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Unread 09-29-2020, 09:06 AM   #1
microbehay
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Bathroom Reno - Michael in WNC

Hey guys,
First, thanks for all the help on past projects. Ill update the finished kitchen post with pics.
Now i am getting into a full-gut bathroom rehab.

the plan:
The wife wants a curbless shower. will be ~35 x 50 (drain @ ~48" from far wall)
Going to do a mud bed with Schluter linear drain.
I have 2x8 joists, 16"OC with supports @ ~5.5' apart
My understanding is i will need about 1.25" mud thickness under drain and then 2.25" at far end of shower for .25"/ft slope.
In the area next to the shower, above the joists will be 3/4" plywood + ditra heat (1/8"??)


I'm calculating i'll have to trim 1 3/8" off joist top to fit 2 1/4 mud at shower entry.
I'd like to sister joists and make shower substrate close to flush with joists.
1) Do i just sister with 2x4s? or do i need to use something beefier.
2) Does shower substrate material matter? can i just use 3x4 ply?
3+)on top of the ply goes tar paper? and then lath? chicken wire?

i'll use the kerdi membrane on top of the mud bed. Will also use it on the walls. I have seen some good YouTub vids where fellas use GlassMat boards in shower walls. not sure if i can find them.
if i cant, and use drywall under the kerdi membrane, i would guess that the shower walls, membrane, kerdi band go up first, and then the mudbed + kerdi membrane on bed.
4) is this the correct order?
thanks in advance for all your help.
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Unread 09-29-2020, 09:48 AM   #2
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somehow, after weeks of trying to figure out all the bathroom components, i just saw there is a JB Kerdi Shower Book. !!! purchased.

also seems that i should buy the the tile your world book to answer questions about the plywood substrate. so ill do that.

but I'd happily take any direct answers or if you have insights to questions that i haven't even asked yet!
thanks ya'll
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Unread 09-29-2020, 09:55 AM   #3
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Welcome back, Michael, you two are going to love the curbless shower and heated floor. I know I love mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
...with supports @ ~5.5' apart
Can you clarify that for us? Do you mean there are beams under those 2X8's every 5.5'?
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Unread 09-29-2020, 10:51 AM   #4
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errr, yea. i guess that is very important.

no i do not mean that.

one side of of the bathroom is an outside wall. so the joist end is on a block wall.

5.5' from the block wall, the joists then hit a 2x4 structure i was calling "support". pictured below. this structure is directly below the flimsy orange level in the bathroom pic . it's a wall structure for the bathroom in the basement.

on the left side of the "under bathroom" pic is a hallway, so there are no vertical 2x4 for 36".


in the "gutted bathroom" pic, the shower will be on the right side (where ladder is)

the main beam of the house is 11' from the block wall edge.
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Unread 09-29-2020, 10:54 AM   #5
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and wife wants slate floor. or marble. i've talked her out of any marble in the shower.
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Unread 09-29-2020, 12:07 PM   #6
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well i just skimmed thru Tile Your World and the Kerdi Shower book.
i think i found answers to all my questions so far, except: does that 2x4 wall add any deflection support?

Seems i need to sister my 2x8s in the entire bathroom with atleast 2x6s. the deflecto-meter doesnt have a "are they sistered?" option.
So maybe someone with some engineering skills can tell me if this will work?

thanks for the help guys. time to get of my butt and start making a mess.
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Unread 09-29-2020, 12:21 PM   #7
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Welcome back, Michael.

If you're talking about the little bit of wall we see in your first photo, that would depend upon what the wall is sitting upon and whether all your joists are "stacked" (sitting directly on top of a stud) like the one in the photo. A support wall would otherwise require double top plates, among other considerations.

In the Deflecto you can account for sistered joists simply by adding the results calculated from each of the members or, if sistered with like material, just use the thicker width in the calculation.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 09-29-2020, 12:53 PM   #8
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happy to be back!

that wee wall is in the basement directly under the bathroom.
i have 8 joists 7 joists directly below the bathroom.

joists 1, 4, 5, 6, 7 are either "stacked" or have a 2x4 directly adjacent to where a 2x4 would "stack" it, so i guess i could jam a 2x4 in there.

joists 2,3 are right above a hallway to the bath room we are using in the basement. so i cant put a 2x4 beneath them, but could possible add some sort of beam, would be 39" long.

Joists #1 and #4 do have (3) 2x4 directly beneath them.


so what are my fun options for fixing this? some blocking from unstacked to stacked joists?

or do i just need to convince the wife of ceramic tile for floor. or both.

house was built in the 50's and everything is as waper-jawed as youd expect.
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Last edited by microbehay; 09-29-2020 at 03:36 PM. Reason: i changed some parts of this post as i was confused.
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Unread 09-29-2020, 03:50 PM   #9
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some more thoughts.
seems i need to deal with joists 3&4 as the other 5 are stacked with at 5.5' from the blockwall.

included is a photo with red and yellow arrows.

Red Arrow:
1) if i put a beam here, that spanned from Joist #1 to Joist #4 what would that look like? 4x4 posts and (3) glued and screwed 2x8? I have 8.5" of clearance between the current joist bottoms and the top of the hallway

Yellow arrow: Removed some more bathroom floor. Joists #1, #4, & #7 have an H shaped of 2x4 grouping. The grouping of (3) 2x4 is 5.5' from block wall that the joists hang on.
Joist #5 has this grouping, but the joist is only over the edge of the H by .5". Joist #2 has one 2x4 beneath it, also not centered on the 2x4, maybe .75" of joist over 2x4

Hopefully i don't need to sister 1,4,5,6&7

note: FWIW there is actually a 4th 2x4 (the one with tool hangers on it) that you can see in the photo that is not part of this group of 3 2x4s

also, when they installed the toilet in in 1950 pink bathroom, they cut clear thru Joist #2. so that need to be sistered.
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Unread 09-29-2020, 07:51 PM   #10
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Michael, I'm sure all that is very meaningful to you, but for me, not so much. I got no eye-dee, for example, where joists numbered 1 thru 8 might be. I also don't see a yellow arrow in your most recent photo and don't see any floor removal photo. Without a photo or two from further away to give some perspective, I'm really lost. And no clue as to where this hallway you're describing might be.

Only help I can give at this point is to say, yes, a header (or short beam) could be used to span the hallway to provide support.

Perhaps someone else can better see what you're describing and provide better help.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 09-29-2020, 09:14 PM   #11
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haha! yea . i guess i'm lost too.

not sure how my yellow arrow got turned blue. but that's what happened.

i just randomly gave the joists are numbers 1-7, haha. but basically, you're right its only meaningful to me, i guess.

this hallway i speak of is below part of the bathroom i'm remodeling and was only pertinent to the fact i can't support the 2 joists that really need it directly from below because of the hallway . these 2 joists will get the header.
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Unread 09-29-2020, 09:34 PM   #12
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ill try and see if this drawing clears anything up. probably not. i tend to over type.


ill post some pics of the torn-out floor tomorrow. i hope to start finish tearing out and start sistering this week.

also to clarify that photo above with the arrows: that is taken below the bathroom im redoing, actually out side of it, looking up to the joists where they hit the shower edge toward the shaded part of my drawing.
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Unread 09-30-2020, 08:34 AM   #13
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The drawing does help, Michael.

So, if the wall below, outlined in blue, is a load bearing wall that should take care of the joists it is under. If it isn't a LB wall it appears that you can rebuild it to be. Then, if you can build a LB wall in the location outlined in red, that should take care of those joists. If you can't do one, the other, or neither then you'll have to sister the joists, ideally with 2X8's at least 2/3'rds as long as the existing joists.
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Unread 09-30-2020, 09:53 AM   #14
microbehay
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dan thanks for the reply.

yea, that all makes sense. i think i am going to move forward with the sistering and putting in a header if need be. I feel confident about fixing joists after being completely confused.

i THINK i need to cut down 1 1/8" of the shower joists to make the shower the proper height for a curbless mud bed + linear schluter drain. But ill post those numbers next. hopefully you can make sure im thinking about this right.

after that i'm going to sister those joists with something to insert subfloor pieces level with joist tops. so basically every joist gets attention.


additionally, referring to my drawing, you will notice a dotted line between Joists 4 & 5. This is going to be the shower's glass wall. So im pretty dang sure ill need to put a full height joist and a lower sistered joist there as well.
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Unread 09-30-2020, 10:13 AM   #15
microbehay
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old floor vs new floor height. i guess im thinking out loud here to make sure im on the right/easy path.

Wife wants slate in toilet/sink area.
Any good advice about getting good slate? we're looking at Cle or Home Depot HD is much cheaper due to shipping, but i only want to do this once.

Old subfloor was 5/8" + 3/4". This abutts 5/8" sub + 3/4" oak outside of bath.

New toilet/sink layering:
3/4" ply
1/8" thinset
1/8" ditra heat
1/8" thinset
3/8" slate
----
1.5"

Shower Layering:
Shower will slope from 1.25" schluter drain to 2.25" at shower door (48" slope).
thinset + kerdi + thinset = ?? 1/8
porcelain penny round/hex = 1/4
2.25" + 1/8" + 1/4" = 2 5/8

so do the numbers adding up to 1 1/8" to cut off joist above shower make sense??
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Last edited by microbehay; 09-30-2020 at 06:12 PM.
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