Redo Grout Only or is Serious Tile Work Necessary?

[Lovegasoline]

This concerns cracked/separating grout on the tiled door jambs of a shower stall.

The tile grout separation is occurring vertically on both shower door jambs from the base to about 3-1/2" feet up. The jamb with the shower door's hinge shows bigger gaps than the latch side jamb.

The tiles themselves are not showing any damage, breaks, or cracks but the grout has separated up to about 1/8". The tiles are also firmly in place and are not loose. Can this be repaired by redoing the grout, or would it require removing and replacing the tiles as well?

History:
The (apartment) building is pre-WWII. All the bathroom's on this line were completely demolished (floor & ceiling joists/walls/plumbing) and completely rebuilt from scratch about a dozen years ago. The vintage shower door is vintage and was saved and reinstalled in the newly built shower stall.

I've never seen this previously so I assume it's occurred in the past year ... at first sight I thought the grout cracks might be somehow related to moisture in the shower stall due to a small leak (see below), however that was before I noticed the grout cracking on jambs outside of shower stall as well, suggesting something else, possibly the building has recently settled?


Environment:
This shower stall that has had a very slow leak (drop every couple seconds) at the shower head and handle (likely needs a new cartridge). The leak although slow has been unattended for maybe 9 months and I was just made aware of it. The shower door has a large open space at the top and the bathroom has a window that's typically open so the space was vented (and the leak is cold water).

There was a small area of some hard crust buildup on the shower stall floor which I assume to be lime scale (I've never seen anything like this before ... it resembles a small patch of very hard white/beige cement about 1"x3"... I removed it with vinegar/baking soda and scraping with a plastic putty knife). I've never seen that here (NYC) so I wonder if that means hard water?


Thanks for any suggestions or observations.


Pics:
-First pic shows shower door installation.
-Other 4 pics show hinge jamb tiles, inside and outside of the shower stall.

[Lovegasoline]

Additional pics:

-First pic shows outside of hinge side jamb: the bulge here is not a new defect (due to cracking grout) but was a structural part of the wall, i.e. the contractor disney do the best work, some walls were not completely plane.
-Second pic is close-up of inside the shower stall tiles, hinge-side jamb (the biggest gap).
-Third pic shows latch side jamb: left is outside the shower stall, right is inside.

[jadnashua]

Any ideas on how the shower was actually constructed? Ideally, some pictures during its construction?

Those mineral deposits are the results of them leaching out of the materials beneath that are saturated...in a properly built shower, while the substrate might be damp, there should not be any standing water. To get rid of any standing water in the pan requires the waterproofing layer to be properly sloped to the drain, and, in a conventional shower build with a liner, the liner properly sloped to the drain with the weepholes open and not clogged. And, no, the tile is not the waterproofing layer; it's a decorative wear surface.

A common error in curb construction is to put screws through it. Code calls for no penetrations of the waterproofing within 2" above the top of the curb. 2x4's are a commonly used material for curb construction bases, and, if there's a leak into them, they start to swell. Grout is the weaker component of a tiled surface, and if there's movement (required for the grout to crack), the first thing to fail.

Without some more info on how the shower was constructed, a solid fix cannot be made. Regrouting probably won't resolve the issue, and it will recur.

[Kman]

What you're seeing is typically caused by something under the tile swelling up due to moisture infiltration. It could be the substrate, or the framing, but whatever it is won't likely be fixed without demolition.

It may get worse with time, but it certainly won't get any better. My advice would be to start planning for a new shower soon.

[jadnashua]

This won't be much consolation, but one class I took said that 70-80% of the showers are not built to industry standards...IOW, less than ideal outcomes seems to be more in the majority versus good outcomes.

It's not particularly hard to build a successful shower, but it is very detail oriented, and one or more deficiencies can end up with a failure. Some occur quickly, some take some time to show up. There's many more than one accepted way to build a shower, but many do not either know, don't care, or fail in the process.

[Davy]

As a band-aid, I'd silicone that gap you're seeing. Most likely the wood framing is getting wet and swelling. With the gap open, water continues to get in there.

[Lovegasoline]

Thanks for the replies.

Here's the only pics I have of construction. Unfortunately I don't know anything more.
The last last pic shows a glimpse of the shower door's hinge side jamb at at the far left side of the pic ... the shower stall itself is out of view off the frame at the left (the inset in the wall in that pic is to receive a medicine cabinet).
I have no way of knowing how the underlying construction was fabricated. I had requested that they retain the vintage 1920s shower door (and medicine cabinet) as I liked its style, so in this bathroom they had to fabricate door jambs (and of the precise spacing to accommodate the door).

[Lovegasoline]

The bathroom and shower were rebuilt in 2011 so 12 years ago.
I do not recall any leaks during that time.

Presently there's a slow leak from the shower head and also from the handle on the wall. Again this slow leak has been there for like 10 months.

A plumber is coming next week to (but likely an apprentice not a master mechanic). I assumed it was a shower cartridge issue but I'm unfamiliar with plumbing ... so it could be something else and/or it could be leaking into the wall (or into the floor from the drain?).
I wonder what I should have him inspect regarding the leak? How to do this non-invasively as possible?

[jadnashua]

It appears that they used greenboard on the walls, which is no longer an approved backer for tile in a wet area, nor do we see how the curb or pan was constructed. FWIW, it never was a great idea for use on walls in a shower, especially when the joints are treated with paper tape and drywall compound.

In and of itself, a drip in the shower shouldn't cause damage other than maybe some mold as the surfaces can remain wet without a chance to dry, but it should not get beneath or behind the shower unless there's some other construction issue.

IMHO, when you start to tear this apart in the future, I think you're going to find a fair amount of water damage inside the walls, and maybe on the floor as well.

Could you poke a hole in the ceilng below and put an inspection camera in there underneath? What about through a wall in another room?

[jonchicagoland]

Like others have mentioned, I think your cartridge leak is unrelated to the joint cracks that have developed.

The most likely problem is you have a fair bit of water built up within the pan (clogged weep holes and/or no preslope). What happens is the water level rises beneath the tile until it finds a path outwards. If there's gypsum in the curb, that will suck up the water and spread it to the surroundings pretty quickly. If not, we regularly see fastener penetrations in the liner, and over-zealous trimming of the liner. Both of those would eventually let water through.

For "non-invasive" inspection, I use a cheap pinned moisture meter. It's not a perfect solution (ie, I don't have numbers that will give you a diagnosis), but it will give you clues to where moisture has gathered. Press the pins pretty hard into the grout joints (the pins will get bent on the hard grout, but they are replaceable). Choose various points to define the drain path (ie, should be a higher number near the drain), and follow the moisture up the walls.

As an example, if you find moisture in the open grout joint on the outside of the shower door, I think that's pretty good confirmation of what folks here are saying.

[Davy]

Here is a greenboard shower and this had cement board over the greenboard. Yours might have the tile stuck directly to the greenboard. Best I remember, this one was about 15 years old.

[Snets]

Is there an apartment unit below yours where you might be able to observe some water damage/staining on the ceiling in that unit?

[Lovegasoline]

Snets wrote:

Is there an apartment unit below yours where you might be able to observe some water damage/staining on the ceiling in that unit?

There's the bathroom below and I can have a plumber taker a look.
These shower stalls have tiled ceilings, so if there is a leak it's possible it might not be as observable through the tiles(?).

[Lovegasoline]

jadnashua wrote:

"Those mineral deposits are the results of them leaching out of the materials beneath that are saturated.."

Are you referring here to the "small area of some hard crust buildup on the shower stall floor which I assume to be lime scale"?

It appears that they used greenboard on the walls, which is no longer an approved backer for tile in a wet area, nor do we see how the curb or pan was constructed. FWIW, it never was a great idea for use on walls in a shower, especially when the joints are treated with paper tape and drywall compound.

The building owner would typically hire people without he highest qualifications but they were licensed and the job had permits, however the contractor was a shady guy as I had plenty of interaction with him. (To rebuild these rooms the owner hired a company that specialized in exterior masonry and had less experience in interior construction).
The tile guy used was surprisingly good (compared to what I've seen elsewhere in the building) but he didn't do any of the fabrication or substrate. I highly doubt a bathroom or shower specialist was used, just the GC and whatever cheap day labor he could find at Home Depot and the cheapest cost for construction materials.

Could you poke a hole in the ceilng below and put an inspection camera in there underneath? What about through a wall in another room?

The bathroom below can be inspected for evidence of moisture or water damage (however inside the shower stalls the ceilings are tiled, so there’s moisture it may not penetrate through the tile?). A hole could be made in the ceiling for inspection but once that occurs it means opening a can of worms. Not sure the owner is willing to go that route at present.

I did a cursory inspection (all directions based on looking into the shower stall from outside):

-to the right side of the shower stall is a bedroom, also no sign of water damage. Note that I believe this wall is double thickness as a series of large drain pipes are routed there.
-looking straight ahead is the wall wherein the shower handle/valve is mounted. On the other side of that wall is bedroom closet (also houses the water shutoff valves to the shower) and there's no evidence of moisture or water damage, past or present.
-to the left side off the shower stall is a bedroom wall. No sign of water damage or moisture.


Btw...is there a link to typical shower construction (perhaps extrapolating from the green board used here for ex.) so I'm conversant with the terms being used?

[Lovegasoline]

Davy wrote:

As a band-aid, I'd silicone that gap you're seeing. Most likely the wood framing is getting wet and swelling. With the gap open, water continues to get in there.

That might be the way forward, at least initially. Apply silicone after first removing the serrated grout from the gap, or best not to touch the grout and risk dislodging/damaging the tiles?

The bathroom was redone in 2011. I never saw any evidence of moisture damage or water leak during all that time. I guess I'm connecting the leak from shower head and on/off handle to the damaged tiles, but they may not be related. OTOH, maybe the leak at the handle is making its way into the wall behind, then gravity is contributing to routing it to the door jamb???

Here is a greenboard shower and this had cement board over the greenboard. Yours might have the tile stuck directly to the greenboard. Best I remember, this one was about 15 years old.

I do not know if they used cement board or not. If I had to guess I'd say no (but that's just speculation)? They did use cement board for the floor of the full bathroom (w/tub).