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Unread 04-20-2013, 12:01 PM   #511
tilejoe
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Why chase the end user? Seems backwards if you are trying to eradicate it.
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Unread 04-21-2013, 10:32 AM   #512
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Dean, just because someone hasn't become certified by the epa doesn't mean they don't care. Some people may choose not to give their money to a blood sucking leach on our economy and freedom who's very existence violates the constitution but that is by no means proof they aren't working in a manner thats safe for their customers. You seem to be doing well cheering on this regulation but keep in mind you're in bed with the same organization that has been trying to strong arm Arizona into closing almost all access to ohv's because they create dust. I don't even want to know how much money they've spent trampling on my states rights when all they had to do was observe one of our daily dust storms that are happening somewhere in the state at almost any given time of the day. It'd take every az resident driving full speed offroad a lifetime to generate the amount of dust a gust of wind kicks up in one day but hey, you keep right on supporting them. One of these days when you realize the buerocrats have robbed our country of everything you care about give yourself a pat on the back.

By and large it seems that your "victims" are simply kids who can't pay attention. Make sure you crucify that contractor and not pay any attention to the fact that the victim is being raised and babysat by an x-box and mindless tv programing. The buidings that the epa actually can, constitutionally control also contain the most amount of lead and happen to be exempt so stop pretending they have the publics best interest at heart.

I've paid the leeches but won't be renewing. I sincerely hope nobody else gives them a dime.
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Unread 04-21-2013, 02:05 PM   #513
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Hank, nice post. I concur.
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Unread 04-21-2013, 05:57 PM   #514
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Unread 04-21-2013, 07:10 PM   #515
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I for one have found that its not just the contractors tht don't care. I've lost more than one job to non-compliant contractors because the homeowner says my fees to be compliant with EPA laws is an expense that they do not want to pay. These are houses with kids. I don't add a huge amount, enough to cover the plastic, some tape, the box of garbage bags, and a few hours to cover the labor expense for myself and my helper for setup at the beginning and final tear down and clean up at the end. On average it's maybe $100. As it stands, I am the only EPA compliant tile company in an area where both home owners and contractors have chooses to ignore the law. I've pretty much stopped bidding these houses because it's just not worth the time to bid them anymore.
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Unread 04-21-2013, 08:10 PM   #516
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I do not / will not bid projects that involve lead or the EPA. Not worth the hassle in my estimation.

Ive got one right now that fortunately the bathroom was remodeled except for the removing the fiberglass shower enclosure. We can remove this without disturbing 6 sf of painted surface. All baseboards were replaced with tile and will be upgraded.

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Unread 04-21-2013, 08:43 PM   #517
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It's just a silly way for government to expand control. So if your test results negative for lead do you set about covering the whole house with a layer silica sand, gypsum, fiberglass and portland cement? Of course not. Reputable, safety minded contractors will always clean up, or at least give the homeowners a heads up to the mess, do the deed when no one is home, and either clean up the mess or give the residents that option to save money. I've always done everything in my control to contain the dust and mess then cleaned it up. Never needed the epa to charge me 300$ to tell me to do it. I've always had competition that will come in, make a huge mess without even turning off the ac, or giving any warning and let the family breath in the mess. Hacks will be hacks and government will find ways to waste money and expand its control. There's nothing new under the sun.
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Unread 04-24-2013, 07:17 AM   #518
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I want to hear more about this caulking and such with lead... I highly doubt the installed intentionally sought it out. Like Joe said, the manufacturers are the ones that need to get flogged in that one, not the installers.

To me, the most ridiculous part of the whole "program" is that the HO can't opt out. Guess that just goes along with that same way of thinking that regulates what size soft drinks you can buy.

I'd really like to believe this is the beginning of the end for this program, but once big gov't gets its hands on something like this, they're not ones to let go easily.
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Unread 04-24-2013, 08:29 PM   #519
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Brad,
It was asbestos … not lead in the caulk.

Did some quick calculations from the latest research I have of Austin. Roughly, 2,000 children under the age of 6 were lead poisoned in Austin the past 12 months. Around 20,000 children under the age of 6 have above average lead in their blood. Enough to dumb them down some (as reflected in school grades), per new research.

The only thing keeping this from becoming a big issue is …

1. Pediatricians aren't doing lead blood test.
2. Since the Pediatricians aren't doing lead blood test, the parents don’t know.

To some … this is a problem. To others, it is an issue that should be ignored or laughed about.
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Unread 04-24-2013, 08:53 PM   #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
Roughly, 2,000 children under the age of 6 were lead poisoned in Austin the past 12 months. Around 20,000 children under the age of 6 have above average lead in their blood.
What's your source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
Enough to dumb them down some (as reflected in school grades), per new research.
What "new research"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...mply_causation
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Unread 04-24-2013, 10:11 PM   #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bathroomremodeler
To some … this is a problem. To others, it is an issue that should be ignored or laughed about.
I don't think anybody here thinks lead poisoning is funny or that it's something to be ignored when remodeling. But I think the problem lies in the manner that's being forced on everyone to "fix" the problem.
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Unread 04-24-2013, 10:19 PM   #522
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I don't think it's a matter of not caring, but of lack of credibility on the part of the EPA. The federal govt. has been hollering wolf for so long, about so many things (sodium, fat, cholesterol, carbon, carbon dioxide, etc. etc.) that have turned out to be non-issues, that most people turn a blind eye to whatever their current crusade condemns.

Dean, I believe that you are sincere, and I'm not saying that lead is not a problem, but it's not hard to see why most folks would just turn it off when they hear anything from the same sources that have fed them so much b.s. in the past.
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Unread 04-25-2013, 06:31 AM   #523
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Number one, the federal government has no constitutional authority to pontificate in the states. The welfare of individuals is the business of the states and the individuals. The federal government does have authority to cause research to be done and information to be disseminated. It can spend money on "arts and useful sciences."

It's not that people don't care about the health and welfare of other people. It's just that some of us resent the federal government telling us what to do and how to do it. The government should put out the info and then leave us alone.
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Unread 04-25-2013, 07:18 AM   #524
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Dana

Research

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/NTP/ohat/Le..._Final_508.pdf. To make life easier, go to table 1.1. Look under sufficient evidence, < 5. Recent state study showed this type of damage starts at 2 levels.

On 5 blood levels, CDC says around 2.5% to 3% children have this. I used Austin’s census records to find the number of children under 5 age and multiplied to get around 2,000 under 6.

The State of Texas says 1 in 3 have 2 in the blood, which gave me the number 20,000.

Older (couple of years ago) study showed 2 to 3 in blood of adults dramatically increases the chance for heart disease, heart attack and stroke.

EPA

To be honest, not a big fan of them either. My views make Dick Cheney look like a liberal. So I despise government interference. However, I’m 2 faced to a point. I like fishing and like the clean lakes & rivers. I live in Dallas, so I like the air now better than decades ago. So I appreciate some of what EPA has done … as long as it affects me positively and doesn’t start telling me to clean up my act. As a contractor, when they started to tell me to clean up my act … all of a sudden … I’m anti-EPA.

Talked with a guy to where his boss told him to walk on a 2X4 on a scaffolding job. He was scared, but knew he would get fired, so he did it. He wondered where OSHA was. Now he is the boss of his own crew and can’t stand OSHA.

The reality is, many of us like regulations when they help or benefit us. We hate regulations when they apply to us and cost us money.

I know EPA tried the “notify the homeowner” and “homeowner opt-in or opt-out”. Didn't work.

The Client

I realize the client doesn't want to pay more for lead safe work. I also realize if the client finds that their child has above average lead in their blood … they go nuts. No good answer.

Law

Generally, I agree with John and the others that the states should handle it. Some states handle this issue and not the fed. Not even so sure I want even the states to handle this subject.

However, as of right now ... it is what it is.
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Unread 04-25-2013, 09:37 AM   #525
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I don't think there's any of us that think lead poisoning is a joke.

But like Hammy, I do not / will not bid projects that involve lead. It doesn't mean I'm not a careful contractor who doesn't take steps to keep the job as clean as possible. I most certainly do keep a clean job site. But I simply avoid projects that involve lead. I won't get certified because it seems to promote fake authority to those imposing the regulations. Like John B said, the feds have no business forcing this upon the states.

And the government's estimate of adding $35 to the cost of each job is downright nonsense. That's the dollar figure that was rammed down my throat when I first started investigating what it would take to get certified. That's when I started getting suspicious that the new regulations for lead were shaping up to be a badly paved road to travel down. If contractors priced the extra costs involved for work involving lead at the same price level government operates its business at, it would be an embarrassingly expensive extra cost to the homeowner. And if the agency whose job is entirely based around the safe removal of lead drastically underestimates their own costs and now has to re-think higher fees, who would ever give credibility to their estimates on what it "should" cost contractors? Not me.

John B said it well when he said the feds have no business forcing this upon the states.

But say for a second that the individual states did decide to implement exactly what's already being done, there's still a major flaw in the system that hasn't been solved: There are a lot of kids previously poisoned and it's not being acknowledged within this system. If a contractor does work for a family that had a child who was already poisoned by lead, that contractor is still potentially liable...even if that contractor did everything precisely and diligently "by the book". That's a major flaw. The only way I can imagine avoiding the situation is by having the entire family blood tested before and after the job...which is outrageously ridiculous. This type of system puts contractors a lot closer to the "guilty until proven innocent" end of the spectrum.

Litigation is so expensive that it could easily put many contractors out of business just attempting to fight for their own innocence. That's a problem. Like Hammy, I do not / will not bid projects that involve lead.
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