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Old 04-17-2004, 10:04 PM   #1
onetonseed
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New NobleSeal CIS

would anyone like to comment about this new NobleSeal CIS sheet membrane. Their ad is in the March2004 Tile Letter.
They say this eliminates backerboards and also can provide waterproofing.goto www.noblecompany.com
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Old 04-17-2004, 10:40 PM   #2
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Hi Oneton,
I think it's a great product. You're familiar with Schluter Ditra? The Nobleseal & Ditra are in the same genre of flexible, glue down underlayments. They are used for many of the same type of applications.
Some advantages of the Nobleseal:
Height. It's about as thin as you can go & still get underlayment type crack isolation properties. On slab installs you can even use it for only part of the floor that you're really concerned about.
Waterproofing. Since it's thin enough to overlap itself & not create a large bump, you don't need the added cost or effort of a seperate waterproofing band for all the seams.
Puncture resistance. Once you install flexible waterproofing the job isn't over yet, you still have to spend a lot of time on it installing the tile. Since the Nobleseal is a full 30 mil thick & it's in direct contact with the subfloor for backup, it can provide a little peace of mind in critical waterproofing applications.
Ease of installation. Like all the other membrane underlayments, it's lighter, easier, & faster to install than CBU.
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Old 04-18-2004, 05:36 AM   #3
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Oh Tom!

Your not suggesting to apply Noble CIS over single layer plywood subfloor are you? The ad shows the CIS over single layer OSB. Deceptive marketing my friend.
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:23 AM   #4
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I agree,i,ve also had a very hard time getting other nobleseals to stay adhered to the thinset no matter what size the trowel how wet and how much rolling i did.
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Old 04-18-2004, 10:33 AM   #5
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You all know I'm a Schluter man, but I'm also a fair minded one. Why shouldn't Noble be able to specify their membrane over a single-layer wood floor?
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Old 04-18-2004, 11:08 AM   #6
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John you can use it anywhere you would Ditra. It's been independantly tested w/ the Robinson floor test method at 19.2 joist spacing over single layer 3/4" plywood subfloor. It received a light commercial rating.

I just thought of another feature:
Point load strength. If you do any heavy commercial or have a job expecting heavy point loads, it has considerably more point load strength than the raised waffle type design.

Dave, the key to getting it to stick is the same for all the sheet type underlayments: It has to be flat before you glue it down. That means careful storage so it stays round, and before you glue it go around the edges & backroll anything that isn't laying flat.
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Old 04-18-2004, 04:02 PM   #7
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Oh wait till Todd gets a hold of this one. I have posted several threads asking why on membrane such as Ditra can be used over single layer plywood and not the rest of them. Lets get this debate out in the open. If I can put Ditra directly on a subfloor. Then I should be able to put Protecto Wrap, Flexguard or any of the roll on membranes over a single layer subfloor and be done with it.:


Who is going to agree that backerboard doesn't do anything and there are 1000's of feet per day installed over single layer floor systems as directed by the manufacture.
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Old 04-18-2004, 09:43 PM   #8
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If your floor meets the "L/360 requirement", does it really matter what you put overtop of the floor? Isn't the main goal to isolate the tile away from the flooring structure? Most single layer 19/32" subfloors can handle up to and over 350lbs before exceeding L/360. However almost every tile floor installed over single layer plywood has failed.
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Old 04-18-2004, 11:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Who is going to agree that backerboard doesn't do anything and there are 1000's of feet per day installed over single layer floor systems as directed by the manufacture.
I'll tell you who: the CBU manufacturers themselves. We have a subconscious feeling that because CBU is thick that it is "sturdy". It must add to the strength of the floor, right? The truth is that it doesn't. The CBU manufacturers all say the floor has to l/360 before the CBU. They also say you must not rely on the CBU for any flexural or deflection strength in the floor. So all it does is bridge cracks.
Trouble is that CBU are 3x5 rigid panels. If they're not installed perfectly they can create their own cracks. All the movement of the whole 3x5 panel is transferred to the very edge. Flexible membranes on the other hand will not focus all the movement into a single line. They give you the effect of one single giant uncoupled sheet.

BTW, it's not really fair to lump all membranes together with thinner products that don't have the industry standard testing to back them up.
I don't think the CIS concept is that new. I believe it's more of new advertising campaign. Eric could tell us for sure when he checks back in.
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Old 04-19-2004, 04:55 AM   #10
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Tom,


Fair enough.
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Old 04-19-2004, 09:35 AM   #11
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I'll ask Eric if he wants to borrow my computer, he is here somewhere.

John K, I would have to write a mini book to give you all the whys to you question. Did a presentation on it this AM, only took 2 hours. Should have taped it for you, LOL.
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Old 04-19-2004, 03:59 PM   #12
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I don't think the makers of Protecto Wrap have that in mind for their product anyway. Don't know if it's even been tested that way. Eric HAS tested his product, and I think it will do the job.

I still like Ditra, though.
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Old 04-19-2004, 05:51 PM   #13
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Dave G,

Just give me the short version of the "mini book".
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Old 04-19-2004, 09:25 PM   #14
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I'm a Noble guy till 5 PM tomorrow, doing a class here this week wearing my blue shirt. However, at 7 PM tomorrow I put on my orange shirt for three days. This means dinner and smiles every night after class till 10 or 11 PM. No time for a mini series, sorry. Glad when next week gets here, then I can wear what I want, basic installation class.
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Old 04-20-2004, 05:30 AM   #15
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What a job. " Dinner and smiles".
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