Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 12-03-2019, 04:26 PM   #1
Jepjep13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 6
HELP! Water under marble shower floor

Hello,

We recently finished our master bath shower after gutting it to the studs and removing the fiberglass shower pan. We chose a porcelain “marble look” 12”x24” tile for the walls, 2” Carrera marble hexagon on the floor and in the back of the niche, and solid marble for the dam cap and niche shelf and trim.

I first filled in the gapping hole around the drain in the foundation with concrete that was hidden under the fiberglass shower pan.

Built a curb out of 2x4’s and scabed in 2x6 pieces in between each stud

Set the drain and packed a dry mud base for a presolpe.

Put in the rubber liner, siliconed to the drain and installed the locking ring and water tested it.

Packed in the dry mud mortar bed and used stucco mix and wire for the dam, putting pebbles around the weep holes of the drain.

Durarock the walls, filling all screw holes and seaming joints with webtape thin set

3 coats of red guard on everything down and out to 1” around the outside of mud bed.

Tiled the walls starting with the second row, then laid the floor and dam cap, then the bottom row of tiles.

Grouted everything with bostik hydroment vivid sanded grout that is supposed to be good down to 1/16 grout joints. Waited 72hrs per bostik to seal

Used 511 sealer on everything, waited 24hrs and repeated, waited another 24hrs

Set the frameless shower doors and everything looked great!

Then we hook half a dozen showers and I could see water being retained under the marble floor. We took a few more showers and it spread.

I searched the around the web and found about the exact same thing here:

https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin...ad.php?t=81422

Although it was seemingly repaired it unfortunately did not state the cause.

We have obviously stopped using the shower and I have a heater running in there to hopefully dry it out and hopefully the tiles will go back to their lighter, original color. If so, my question is now should I grind all the grout out and regrout with maybe epoxy or start pulling up tiles. I hope that is enough info and I will try to post all of the pics I have. Thank you for any assistance you may provide. James
Attached Images
      
__________________
James

Last edited by Tool Guy - Kg; 12-04-2019 at 12:44 AM. Reason: Light up the hyperlink
Jepjep13 is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 12-03-2019, 04:31 PM   #2
speed51133
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Milwaukee WI area
Posts: 799
it may be the nature of the beast with marble. This issue comes up time and time again. One of the reasons why real marble is frowned upon, despite it being in all the instigramz.

I would not blame your grout. Grout and tile, ESPECIALLY marble, are NOT waterproof. If anything, marble is very absorbent. Your preslope or final slope MAY have a puddling spot in it exacerbating the issue.
__________________
Mike
speed51133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 05:29 PM   #3
Jepjep13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 6
Thank you. And yes I have heard that about marble but others say it’s notbthat bad, idk. Water seems to sit on the marble dam cap just fine but it’s 5/8” thick too Where the discoloration is around the drain is where the water puddles some when showering as it’s going down the drain, I don’t know what would be considered excessive, but there is no standing water within seconds of turning the water off. The hydroment was stiffening up when I was doing the floor so maybe it’s faulty and passing too much water, that’s what I feel it is. The floor grout now has some micro cracking, but these are the only cracks I can find. This shower was used for the first time less than 2 weeks ago. I know some of the cheap marble may be more prone to being porous but I think it’s going through the grout too quickly. In some areas on the wall grout it will really not absorb water and change color, in other areas it’s immediate.

Also, when we took the last shower, water was being expressed out of the grout around the drain 12 hours later, it dried up within the following 12 hrs sometime to point where it was not wet to the touch. Seems like it should be going out the weep holes more so than the surface around the drain.
Attached Images
   
__________________
James

Last edited by Jepjep13; 12-03-2019 at 06:14 PM.
Jepjep13 is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 06:23 PM   #4
jerrymlr1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,095
Was redgard applied to the shower floor? The cracks in the grout would indicate some kind of movement IMO. Does everything sound solid? No hollow spots?
__________________
Jerry
jerrymlr1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 06:44 PM   #5
speed51133
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Milwaukee WI area
Posts: 799
Was the floor waterproofed??
__________________
Mike
speed51133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 06:49 PM   #6
Jepjep13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 6
Everything is solid as a rock.

There is no surface water proofing other than red guard coming about in inch or so off the wall. See pic. The only other thing, and I don’t have a pic of it, is that I skim coated the floor with thin set and when dried I sanded it smooth with an orbital sander but afterwards I can’t imagine any of it being very thick as I went back to mortar in several places, wanted to eliminate any minute bird bathing

The area with the cracking is circled in yellow. There was a small void under the green tape as well, my fault, and I believe that is why those tiles went dark. When we continued to use the shower I put frog tape over that void and that area seemed to lighten as other areas darkened and spread. This is another reason I believe this is an excessive grout penetration issue.

But if water is expressing at the grout around the drain for over 12 hrs I am concerned about the weep holes too.
Attached Images
   
__________________
James

Last edited by Jepjep13; 12-03-2019 at 07:00 PM.
Jepjep13 is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 08:14 PM   #7
speed51133
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Milwaukee WI area
Posts: 799
did you test and measure both the preslope and final slope for proper slope and consistency?? Is the drain set too high in the mortar bed?

Your issue is NOT water getting "under" the tile through some crack in grout. Water soaks through the grout AND tile.
__________________
Mike
speed51133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 08:19 PM   #8
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 31,854
How did you make your dry pack, what did you use? The grout is not the problem.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 08:36 PM   #9
Tool Guy - Kg
Moderator -- Wisconsin Kitchen & Bath Remodeler
 
Tool Guy - Kg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oak Creek, WI
Posts: 21,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by speed51133
Soo.....how did you waterproof the pan??????

Was there a liner?
Mike, he’s got a liner and 3-piece clamping drain. Take a look at the 4th & 5th picture near the top of the thread to see the drain and liner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jepjep13
...I have heard that about marble but others say it’s notbthat bad, idk.
Any installer who says it’s not too bad hasn’t had the pleasure of the problem. But the problem is very real. And it’s very unpredictable. The unpredictability is the key problem.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jepjep13
I know some of the cheap marble may be more prone to being porous...
No, not really. The same good quality stone from the same quarry sometimes is good and sometimes problematic.

From the way you’re describing the grout getting hard on you as you finished, the little cracks, and the varying display of porosity, the grout may be contributing to the problem, but isn’t the main problem. Can I ask a bit about your grout? As the grout was stiffening, did you add a little bit of water to soften it up a tiny bit? I ask because properly mixed grout will be homogeneous. And if the parts that are absorbing additional moisture are the same parts that had a little water added to the mix, that would help explain.

Also...what did you do, if anything, to protect the weep holes?

But one problem is very clear: your stone is absorbing moisture. So, even if the grout was 100% non porous (which non are), it certainly looks like you’d still have something of a problem.

__________________
Tonto Goldstein... but my friends call me Bubba

Help an awesome summer camp!

Last edited by Tool Guy - Kg; 12-03-2019 at 08:41 PM.
Tool Guy - Kg is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 08:39 PM   #10
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 13,084
Thinset, tile, and grout are all less than waterproof. Deck mud, OTOH, is pretty porous, so moisture SHOULD pass through it fairly quickly, the others, less so, but still potentially noticeable. How thick was the thinset you used on top of the finished slope prior to adding the thinset and tile at the end?

THat thinset layer could slow the water getting to the weep holes as it's less porous than the deck mud beneath it, potentially holding that moisture longer.

Since marble is a natural substance, the quality and performance issues will vary between not only types, but also from where in the quarry it was mined. Smaller tile like on your pan, could have come from multiple locations, thus, they could respond to being wetted in a different manner.

Sealers don't actually block moisture. They are designed to help slow down the absorption of stuff, giving you a chance to clean it up prior to it sinking in far enough to permanently stain.

Some grouts are more water permeable than others (most epoxy grouts are nearly impermeable). Cement based one, much less so.

Industry standards call for changes of plane and material should have a soft joint. In a shower, that typically is done with caulk. Grout often does not fare well in those locations. The alternative is to use an engineered profile joint, but that adds to the initial costs, and people often don't want that expense (often will end up seeming cheap when the caulk needs to be dug out to refresh, though, maybe many times over the life of the shower!).
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 09:34 PM   #11
Jepjep13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 6
Here are some pics of the slope.

Facing the shower head - about 29” from wall to center drain with a good 3/8”+ fall

Rear wall to center drain 29” with 7/16”+ fall

Left to center of drain 11 1/2 with 1/4”+ fall

Right wall to center drain 15 1/2” with 1/2”fall, yeah I know the drains off center

A little flat on the long sides I guess



I used Portland cement and sand in 1:5 mix I believe , but I did pack the hell out of it.

As far as the thin set skim coat or float coat I would say would range from 0-maybe 1/4”


As far as the grout stiffening. Yes it was getting clayish and may have had more water introduced to it to some degree, the directions stat to wipe water over the tiles as you grout. It was really sloppy in the beginning, oh and I did break the bag into 3 batches

I protected the weep holes with a bunch of gravel
Attached Images
      
__________________
James

Last edited by Jepjep13; 12-03-2019 at 09:46 PM.
Jepjep13 is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 09:51 PM   #12
Kman
Moderator
 
Kman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NW Arkansas, Ozark Mountains
Posts: 10,983
Kurt, he mentioned in post #1 that he had gravel around the weep holes.

James, my opinion, and we know what that's worth, is that the water is very slowly draining out through the weep holes and through the mud, and it's just always going to be that way. That's assuming that the low end of the liner around the drain is above the weep holes, so that it can drain properly.

If I could have steered you in a different direction early on, o would have told you to use a surface-applied membrane rather than a PVC liner.

Would that have solved the problem? Maybe. I don't know. But I think you'd at least see less of what you're seeing now.

My advice at this point, is to not look at it.

Seriously, I don't know anything you could do to fix it.
__________________
Kevin

The top ten reasons to procrastinate:

1.
Kman is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 10:49 PM   #13
Jepjep13
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 6
I think it will just become too saturated at some point to the degree it causes damage in some fashion. I just don’t think I can look at it and watch it continue. I really feel that the grout, especially around the drain area, is just letting an excessive amount of water through. I see my options as:

1. Wait to see if the marble around the drain lightens up as some areas have. Hard to do when it’s been raining for 3 days straight. Then cut out the grout and either regrout with what I have or probably go with epoxy.

2. If the tile doesn’t lighten up, break those dark ones out and repair/replace and cut the grout out of the rest and regrout. Again probably with epoxy. Could test the mortar bed for water absorption and recovery while I have it open. If I went this route do you think I could chip down to the locking ring and inspect the weep holes?

Did anyone read the linked thread. Same situation and the installer said they removed some tiles and let it sit open for something like 24 days and the tiles right next the ones they removed, the tiles never lightened and was still positive for moisture after all that time. He pulled up the whole floor, and I believe applied a topical membrane and regrouted and did not seal it.
__________________
James

Last edited by Jepjep13; 12-03-2019 at 11:17 PM.
Jepjep13 is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 11:34 PM   #14
speed51133
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Milwaukee WI area
Posts: 799
Again, your issue is not the grout. I would not fixate on it at all. Grout can be underwater 24/7. Getting it wet doesn't matter. Even missing grout is not your problem.
__________________
Mike
speed51133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2019, 11:41 PM   #15
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 13,084
First off, your slope does not meet the standards...it's a minimum of 1/4"/foot. The first one was almost 2.5', so 5/8" drop or so, to what you stated as 3/8" assuming I read it right.

THen, replacing the grout with epoxy might help, or hurt things. For any moisture that might have gotten through, there are probably three paths to get rid of it: back through the grout, out the tile, or to weep out the weep holes. Using a nearly impervious grout might prevent that path for moisture to escape. Water wants to go towards dry areas, and gravity helps, too. So, if more water goes through the tile than can either be wicked away underneath or evaporate out the top, it will build up.

Were there any dips in the preslope, and, did the WHOLE pan drain after you did the water test, or were there pockets of water left standing?
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water Behind Marble Shower Wall Tiles ksumi Tile Forum/Advice Board 1 02-11-2016 07:56 PM
Grout Repair -- Found Water Trapped Under Marble Floor gonathan85 Tile Forum/Advice Board 32 12-03-2014 01:04 PM
Water around edges of marble tile in shower Ryden Tile Forum/Advice Board 14 08-20-2013 05:45 PM
Shower marble threshold water staining Lucy SS Cleaning, Restoration and Sealing 8 07-23-2013 08:26 PM
Water stains (I think) on beige marble floor CinLoo Cleaning, Restoration and Sealing 1 03-16-2005 02:38 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:15 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC