Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-19-2018, 10:20 AM   #1
BobbyNorthSouth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NE Florida
Posts: 26
2500 sqft tile project

Thank you all for being here, and the excellent advice we've gotten so far. We had a small setback that delayed the project, but we've started in earnest in the last three weeks.

I've included some before pics
Name:  IMG_3142a.jpg
Views: 214
Size:  57.0 KB

Name:  IMG_6542a.jpg
Views: 208
Size:  58.4 KB

Name:  IMG_6544a.jpg
Views: 209
Size:  65.0 KB
, and the demo of the tile revealed some of the things that are discussed on this forum a lot.
Name:  IMG_6555a.jpg
Views: 210
Size:  56.6 KB
Name:  IMG_6558a.jpg
Views: 210
Size:  70.1 KB

As far as we can tell, that stuff underneath the ready-to-use-thinset (we watched them install some of it one evening) is a painted-on crack inhibitor.
Name:  IMG_6592a.jpg
Views: 212
Size:  82.6 KB
(The Afghanistan-shaped dark maroon stuff is what I'm talking about...it feels and looks like single-sheet roof tile from the old days).

Because of the expansion cracks in the cement foundation (2 engineers already looked at them, only one needs a crack-pac type fix before installing tile), we planned on installing Mapei CI in the entirety of all rooms with cracks (which is almost all of them).

My questions for you all includes: Do I have to worry about filling in all the divots from demo? And what about the slab where it meets the sliding glass door?
Name:  IMG_6598a.jpg
Views: 208
Size:  70.9 KB
It looks like it was chiseled out for the door install, but then never repaired before tile install, and the tile folks just dealt with it by throwing more thinset in until it was kindasorta level to the bottom of the tile. Should I chisel it out and throw down some cement to bring it up even with the rest of the slab?

Thanks all for your advice and knowledge...it's been a boon to us so far.
__________________
Bobby
BobbyNorthSouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 06-19-2018, 01:41 PM   #2
John Bridge
Mudmeister
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 67,030
Send a message via AIM to John Bridge
Hi Bobby,

Well bonded thinset will hold much better than concrete. Don't worry about small divots.
John Bridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2018, 02:11 PM   #3
BobbyNorthSouth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NE Florida
Posts: 26
Thanks Mr. John Bridge, for both your reply and the website!!!
__________________
Bobby
BobbyNorthSouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2018, 04:07 PM   #4
BobbyNorthSouth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NE Florida
Posts: 26
Expansion joints over cracks and every 20' per liberry

I forgot a question: Considering we're using 200mm x 1200mm (roughly 8"x48") rectified porcelain 'wood' planks inside the house with 2mm grout lines (roughly 5/64", more than 1/16", but less than 1/8"), how do we handle the expansion joints? (Yes, we've measured for straightness and the difference in straightness times 3 is less than 2mm.)

Since we're going below the recommended 1/8" expansion joint, do we do expansion joints every 12.6'-15.75' (vs. 20'-25')?

And what about over the cracks? There's no perfect way to put expansion joints directly over the existing hairline expansion cracks (typically coming off 135 degrees from a 270 degree corner in the foundation). So I'm guessing most just put expansion joints around every tile that that interacts with the crack?

Sorry if that's a lot of info jammed in there...thanks for staying with me.
__________________
Bobby
BobbyNorthSouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 04:02 PM   #5
Houston Remodeler
Pondering retirement daily

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Houston Remodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 27,819
How old is the slab?

Are the cracks different heights on different sides of the cracks or smooth across the top?

Got pics?
*
Read pages pages 18-20
__________________
Paul1

For when DIY isn't such a good idea...
Houston TX area Kitchen & Bath Remodeling


http://CabotAndRowe.com
Houston Remodeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 05:23 PM   #6
cx
Da Home Builder
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 85,679
Welcome back, Bobby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby
Since we're going below the recommended 1/8" expansion joint, do we do expansion joints every 12.6'-15.75' (vs. 20'-25')?
You're misreading something in there, Bobby. The absolute minimum tile industry (EJ171) recommended movement accommodation joint width for your tile in an interior installation without moisture or direct sun exposure is 1/4-inch.

Having sat in on a number of discussions of crack isolation systems and movement accommodation methods and practices, I can tell you the only consensus I've ever noted in the discussion about trying to use twice as many joints half as wide as the EJ171 recommendation was that it's definitely not the same thing. You wanna give it a try, you're on your own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby
Yes, we've measured for straightness and the difference in straightness times 3 is less than 2mm.
Did you also stack a dozen or so tiles from different boxes vertically together and use a straight-edge to determine the difference in size from one tile to the next?

As far as relocating movement accommodation joints where the grout joints do not fall directly over cracks or control joints, you are going to need to use a proprietary crack isolation membrane and follow the manufacturer's installation instructions. You can get a good idea what that might entail by looking at the website for NobleSeal CIS from the Noble Company, one of the better manufacturers of such products in the industry. Some good CAD details there.

Relocation of such movement accommodation joints is a good bit less than an exact science and you'll wanna factor in your personal risk tolerance.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 09:30 PM   #7
BobbyNorthSouth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NE Florida
Posts: 26
Houston Remodeler-

The slab was poured in summer 2012, and the cracks are even with each other. In John Bridge's e-book, he calls them "stress cracks" (from the slab curing). They've been evaluated by the builder's engineer (possible warranty claim...the cracks did not meet their criteria), and my own (to see if I should just pony up the money for a repair anyways). We were going to Crack-Pac the bigger one, and just use the Mapelastic CI roll-on in all the rooms with cracks. I have pics, but they'll have to wait until tomorrow.

CX-
Ouch! One of the reasons we decided to ditch the existing tile was because of the huge, light-colored grout lines (the other reason was the cruddy install). It sounds like we'll have to use Crack-Pac on all the cracks to lock them in (I'd use the Mapei product, but no-one will sell me less than a case...$500 I prefer not to spend, seeing as how I'd only need 4 or 5). I don't know what the curing curve looks like for concrete, but I'll bet most of it's done by now (although I've been told they cure for 30 plus years).

Right now, our only plan on the hairline cracks was Mapelastic CI underlayment and Mapesil T (in lieu of Flexcolor CQ grout) over the crack and on adjacent tiles. The one big crack (bigger than recommended by Mapei for the CI product) was going to get the Crack-Pac treatment plus Mapelastic CI.

We did not stack 6ish tiles together to measure straightness we did it individually, but it'll be the first thing I do in the morning. I have a straight-edge I bought specifically for this job and some days remaining on my 'stay-cation', so I'll go compare.

We begin on the master closet soon, and will be using 2mm (just over 1/16") grout lines. The crack thing has been worrying me, so we had considered going to 3mm (just under 1/8") for the remainder of the house. Since that's the big part of the job (great room flows in to kitchen, dining, hallways, children's retreat, and 3 bedrooms), we'll have to evaluate that while we chisel up the remaining thinset/underlayment and grind up the paint left on the floor's perimeter that was under the carpet.

Lotsa stuff to think about, and I keep getting more info on these boards. I'm very pleased to have this place and you all to help.
__________________
Bobby
BobbyNorthSouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2018, 08:44 AM   #8
cx
Da Home Builder
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 85,679
I'd personally save all the dinero you intend to spend on epoxy-type concrete crack "repair" materials, Bobby. In every case I've ever seen where such products were used and the concrete foundation continued to move or change shape the concrete was quite happy to simply crack again immediately adjacent to the repair material. Not saying it can't help, just saying I've never seen a case where it actually did.

Have you photos of these cracked areas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby
(possible warranty claim...the cracks did not meet their criteria)
I've not seen the specs for foundation cracking in a home owner's warranty document for years, but I do recall thinking the limits were, at best, ludicrous. Seemed as though they were saying if a fella couldn't stand in the crack and swing a cat without touching either side it was not considered a "failure."

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2018, 01:36 PM   #9
BobbyNorthSouth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NE Florida
Posts: 26
CX, my understanding of these stress cracks are that they were from curing (the opinion of the engineers that looked at them), so the tensile forces (movement) should be gone.

Name:  IMG_6607a.jpg
Views: 139
Size:  67.9 KB

Name:  IMG_6609a.jpg
Views: 136
Size:  74.6 KB

Name:  IMG_6614a.jpg
Views: 138
Size:  68.2 KB

Name:  IMG_6615a.jpg
Views: 138
Size:  139.6 KB

Since it's been 5 plus years, I think the curing process has at the very least plateaued (https://www.concrete.org/Portals/0/F...224R_01Ch3.pdf, FIG 3.3).

With that in mind, and since the Mapelastic CI instructions expect me to fill the cracks greater than 1mm, I'll likely buy more filler that meets ASTM 881 (i.e., the Simpson Strong-Tie Crack-PacTM, since I can't find a retailer that will sell me individual Mapei units) before proceeding.

To understand the latest and greatest info, I went and bought the TCNA Handbook...thanks to all for referencing that (so I knew where to go to get the info).

As for your comments about the builder's warranty...amen to that!
__________________
Bobby
BobbyNorthSouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2018, 06:44 PM   #10
mark999
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: st louis mo.
Posts: 374
You can call Laticrete tech. support. They have a crack suppresion product consisting of a thick blue liquid and reinforcing fabric. Comes in two gallon container. I think I paid about 150 bucks from a retailer. Can not remember the # but it was something like 9250? Good stuff.
__________________
Mark
mark999 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2018, 08:34 PM   #11
BobbyNorthSouth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NE Florida
Posts: 26
cx, the Mapei rep said the same thing about what he called a "permanent repair" on each inactive crack (i.e., using the Crack-Pac or similar product that meets ASTM C 881). He recommended just skimming over to create a bridge across the bigger cracks (my words) for the Mapelastic CI to ride on (so the Mapelastic CI isn't doing the bridging, so that it's all in-plane as it dries).

The crucial assumption here, as you said, is that the slab near the cracks is not active/moving/under tensile stress.

BTW, here's the stack 6 of 'em side by side test result you asked about (not sure if I did it right):

Name:  IMG_6619a.jpg
Views: 115
Size:  28.5 KB

Name:  IMG_6621a.jpg
Views: 115
Size:  49.7 KB

Name:  IMG_6622a.jpg
Views: 115
Size:  61.5 KB

Name:  IMG_6623a.jpg
Views: 115
Size:  54.4 KB

Name:  IMG_6624a.jpg
Views: 114
Size:  49.7 KB

The smallest feeler gauge I could get in between the Woodpecker's straight edge and the stack of tiles was the .0015 inch; the .003 wouldn't fit. Our original test was random individual planks vs. the straight edge...with the same results.

When I ran my finger across the stack, I could feel the smallest of difference.

I'm going to go snap some lines in the master closet...I'll post some pics later.
__________________
Bobby
BobbyNorthSouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2018, 09:06 PM   #12
cx
Da Home Builder
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 85,679
Straight-edge perpendicular to the tiles is what I had in mind, Bobby. So you can tell if the tiles are all the same size.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2018, 05:35 AM   #13
mark999
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: st louis mo.
Posts: 374
When tou do as cx says the stack of tiles must be perfectly plumb.If you do call Laticrete please lt us know what they say about theie crack suppresion.
__________________
Mark
mark999 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2018, 07:39 AM   #14
BobbyNorthSouth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NE Florida
Posts: 26
CX, I initially thought you meant that, but then thought better of it. Mark, thanks for the clarification.

Sure enough, stacking them flat so I could measure the edges without having a wavy surface effect the outcome, I found I could *feel* the variation, but couldn't *measure* it because I don't have a feeler gauge small enough.

I used the known-straight square as a flat edge on which to ensure alignment on the one side, and then bringing it over to the other side for (attempted) measurement. I did this on both ends of the 'plank.'

Name:  IMG_6628a.jpg
Views: 102
Size:  77.2 KB

Name:  IMG_6630a.jpg
Views: 101
Size:  68.3 KB

Name:  IMG_6631a.jpg
Views: 100
Size:  50.4 KB

Name:  IMG_6632a.jpg
Views: 101
Size:  61.9 KB

So the good news for the installer (me and my better half) is that they are *very* straight, and *very* uniformly wide (at just under 198mm vs 200mm advertised).
__________________
Bobby

Last edited by BobbyNorthSouth; 06-22-2018 at 07:41 AM. Reason: Clarification of to whom I was replying
BobbyNorthSouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2018, 10:11 AM   #15
cx
Da Home Builder
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 85,679
Looks like very well rectified tiles, Bobby. I think you're still likely to find that maintaining that 1/16" grout joint is a bit of a challenge. Best to budget a lot of time for the installation and don't try to hurry.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help with 2500 sq ft tiling project wen Tile Forum/Advice Board 40 02-28-2017 08:07 PM
2500 lb aquarium on tile over wood floor RodgerJ Tile Forum/Advice Board 3 08-11-2013 04:42 PM
price to grout 2500 sq. tile size 20x20 KBridgwood Tile Forum/Advice Board 2 05-25-2005 08:00 PM
How many sqft of tile to buy? agalkin Tile Forum/Advice Board 2 03-15-2005 04:59 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:11 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC