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Unread 01-12-2006, 03:39 PM   #1
Floorit
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Exterior Balcony Job

I have a exterior balcony to do and would appreciate any input into how you would handle this job.

This is new construction, 3/4" plywood (presloped 1/4" / foot) over the front entryway. The fascia board is set 1 1/2" above the level of the plywood. The job is about 200sf.

I was planning to do a traditional mudbed up to the level of the front fascia board (w/ expansion joints) covering that with Ditra waterproofed w/ Kerdi band and finished with a drip cap at the front and sides.

Thanks,

Ray
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Unread 01-12-2006, 03:54 PM   #2
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Location would important information, including temperature and rain levels.

I would do a preslope, would install a membrane, put TROBA on top of the membrane, then the final setting bed, also sloped away from the house.

I'm not a Ditra guy, and don't believe it is waterproof (or at least as waterproof as a sheet membrane), but others will correct me if I am wrong. In any event, I would make that Ditra slope away from the home.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 11:17 AM   #3
Floorit
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The job is in Tennessee, so there will be some freeze/thaw cycles and a significant amount of rain.

After a 1 1/2" mudbed is put in, I would only have about 3/4" left before running into problems with the doors. Can you lay the bonding coat directly to the Troba? From what I've seen, the Troba has to be covered with an additional layer of mortar and then tiled.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 01:50 PM   #4
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Troba needs a mortar bed over it..It makes for a great system however if you don't have the space another option would be Nobledeck.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 05:50 PM   #5
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I have only two words to say, flashing and railings. How about it?
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Unread 01-13-2006, 05:54 PM   #6
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if thats to me, they both have to be dealt with.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 06:02 PM   #7
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No, that is to anyone thinking about a deck, you tell them Eric, you get the calls more than I do I'm sure.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 06:10 PM   #8
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another point is --its a bad idea to penrtrate the membrane every 2', in both directions, to hold form boards for a decrotive concrete pour..
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Unread 01-13-2006, 06:29 PM   #9
Scooter
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Ray, the typical application of TROBA is in this order:

Preslope, membrane, TROBA, mud bed, thinset, tile.

It is a drainage mat, and is designed for outdoor systems where there is a lot of moisture. It drains the mud bed using gravity, and keeps it dry, so in the event of a quick freeze after a long cold rain or melting snow, the moisture in the mud bed doesn't freeze and crack the mud bed.

I can't tell you if you have enough space for what you are doing, but in any event, whatever membrane you use, be it sheet or Ditra or Kerdi, make sure it slopes. Dave, as always, has a good point about flashing and counter-flashing.

I'm not quite understanding the rail point, but yes you need to have them.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 06:34 PM   #10
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what is flashing?? is that when you stand on the balcony and flash the neighbors your new tile before you install it
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Unread 01-13-2006, 06:44 PM   #11
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Lot of the failure calls are membrane penetrations from deck railings, isn't that so Eric? Speak up now, I know it isn't fishing but you have to work once and awhile to buy bait.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 07:01 PM   #12
Floorit
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Thanks for the replies, you share some of the same concerns I have regarding any balcony work.

I have already told the builder that I'll need to bring the membrane a minimum of 3" up the walls to facilitate drainage and to make sure water can't get between the tile and the structure.

I also agree on the railings. If they are attached through the membrane, the whole job is subject to failure. As I understand it, the railings are supposed to be iron. One of my thoughts was to require the railings be in place prior to starting the job, and working around them.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 07:14 PM   #13
jd77
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Hi Ray,

Since you are in the freeze/ thaw climate and the deck will be taking on water - here's what I would do:
  • Since you already have a preslope install a 45mil EPDM membrane over the plywood and flashing up the wall.
  • Then lay down the Troba Plus membrane. The air space in the Troba will become the dew point rather than the joist space inside the house.
  • Float your mud bed using 14ga 2x2 wire reinforcing in the center of the bed.
  • Either set your tile directly to the mud or install Ditra/ Kerdi band first for your primary waterproofing. This will get the tile above the fascia board.


If you don't use the Ditra/ Kerdi band you will have to remove the fascia board to allow the water to escape from the Troba at the bottom of the bed.

If you use railing the penetrations will have to be dealt with as well. Depending on the type of railing you use you could build a pan around each anchor and fill with urethane.

It would also be a good idea to flash up the wall with Kerdi and install some base. This system ( with the Ditra/ Kerdi band ) will keep the water out of the bed and also give you a backup just in case.

Good Luck
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Unread 01-13-2006, 08:28 PM   #14
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If your going to use EDPM in that type of installation it and the seaming would have to be alkaline resistant. That is hit and miss in an unrated product for tile. This has been a discussion item in the past and reflects the opinion of their trade group and technical committees. The issue is long term, it gets "punky" or soft.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 09:22 PM   #15
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Couple other points on your plan, JD:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
The air space in the Troba will become the dew point rather than the joist space inside the house.
How ever would we know that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
Either set your tile directly to the mud or install Ditra/ Kerdi band first for your primary waterproofing. This will get the tile above the fascia board.
If he's gonna have a drain plane below the top of the facia board, be it a primary or secondary drainage, he's gonna hafta make provisions for that drain to see daylight, either by removing the facia or moving it away from the edge of the floor, no?

Ray:

The system that's being described is method D-EXT-OS-04 in the Schluter Installation Handbook if you have access to a copy of that. They've got some special flashing and edge trim pieces, too, if you can figger a way to adapt them to your situation.

And I sure agree with installing the railing newels first and waterproofing them along with your installation.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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