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Unread 02-23-2016, 06:34 PM   #1
ChrisT
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Master bathroom design/tile help

Hello, my name is Chris and I'm hoping to get a little feedback and advice regarding my master bathroom remodel. My master bathroom is on the small side and I was hoping to make it feel more open. I was going to try to move the toilet up to the corner at a angle (floor joist run from top to bottom of picture), install perhaps a 31" long sink/vanity on the back wall of the bathroom, install a pocket door, remove the tub\shower and install a marble tile shower. I'm assuming it wouldn't be a wise choice to install a 12"x12" polished marble tile for a shower floor (I've been trying to find out the slip resistance for the tile)..then again that is why I'm here for feedback and advice.
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Unread 02-23-2016, 08:51 PM   #2
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Chris,

Welcome to the forum.

1- What is the substrate under the tile ? wood or ceement ?

2- Has anyone mentioned the perils of a natural marble shower ? We see fresh postings a few times per week....
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Unread 02-23-2016, 09:19 PM   #3
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1. The substrate is 3/4" osb flooring, bathroom is upstairs/above my garage..

2. No, no mention of it so far. I've been reading up on what I can find about it and I read that the iron content in it can cause it to rust and hair dyes can stain it, lighting is critical. My wife liked the light color plus the glitter/sparkle effect it has but I am open to taking advice. What else should I know about it? I'll try to research a bit more.
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Unread 02-23-2016, 09:41 PM   #4
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Natural stones require two layers of plywood, installed in a specific manner, and a joist deflection no greater than L720. Have you used our handy dandy deflectolator linked in the dark blue bar above?

Marble needs special cleaners. Any normal household cleaner (most contain acids) will permanently etch the marble. Lipstick, rusty shaving cream cans, wine, lemon juice, grease, body lotion, hair gels,.... all will stain the marble. Sealing the stone will only buy you some time to remove a spill, but its not armour.
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Unread 02-23-2016, 10:04 PM   #5
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Well I wouldn't of imagined that I needed anymore floor (I'm guessing due to the weight?), I should of read more. I have actually looked at the deflection calculator and attempted to play with it. My living area sits on top of my 2600sq/ft garage, framing of house was beefed up to eliminate the need for supports throughout the garage. From the garage joist to the subflooring it is 20" tall, some joist are 16" on center but there are some with a 44" on center with boards running parallel to them. I'm guessing this is due to the unique nature of the house. I could get hold of the builder to get more information if I needed.

If marble is that much of a pain, is there anything close to it that resembles a Carrara white polished marble? Thanks again for your time.
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Unread 02-23-2016, 11:09 PM   #6
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Welcome, Chris.

Nothing to do with the weight, has to do with the fragility of the natural stone tiles, some being much worse than others.

The Marble Institute of America (MIA) requires a double layer of plywood subflooring regardless the joist spacing, each layer properly and differently installed, for any natural stone tile installation. And they want all joist spacing to be 16" on center or less. The object is to have no place where a joint in the subflooring extends all the way from the joist tops through the subfloor surface. Joist tops are the location of most tile failures due to floor deflection.

Your joist structure must also meet L/720 deflection, a criterion twice that required for ceramic tile.

You can, of course, tile over anything you want in your house. We can only tell you what the current industry requirements are.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-23-2016, 11:11 PM   #7
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Chris,

I was in Ann Sacks today looking at porcelain tiles that look just like marble. Hones or polished.

Several manufacturers have them.
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Unread 02-28-2016, 08:42 AM   #8
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Okay, I was able to crawl up into a dead space behind one of my other walls. The joist are spaced 24" on center, they are 1.5" thick, joist height I think is 20". That is from the bottom of the floor joist to the subfloor there is 20", the actual flooring appears to be raised and sitting on 2x10's. I'm not sure what the deflection calculator is considering "joist length". Here are a few pictures I've taken of the outside and of the joist support https://goo.gl/photos/SyVoiuL4ypEj34sz8 In one of the pictures you can see the supports also seem to have braces spacing 40+" apart that run between the joist.

CX since the joist are 24" on center does that automatically cross natural stone off my list or can I add cross braces between the joist to help keep them from flexing? I took a picture of the tile currently down on the floor.

EDIT: So from what I've read I think I have an engineered truss floor/roof.
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Unread 02-28-2016, 10:59 AM   #9
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Chris, please post your photos by attaching them from storage on your computer so they appear in your post and don't disappear later when your third party storage site changes the url. Use the paper-clip icon above the Reply dialog box.

I don't see anything in that assortment that might be relevant to your described joist structure and that's what we need to see.

You can put your stones on 24" joist spacing if you have sufficient subflooring. The MIA doesn't like it much, but you may be able to make it work.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-28-2016, 11:13 AM   #10
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Okay here are a couple of pictures I managed to get of the floor joist by pushing my insulation out of the way. With 3/4" osb subfloor what would need to be placed in order for natural stone to be laid correctly? Tiling the wall with natural stone in a shower would be safe on this also?
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Unread 02-28-2016, 12:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
...the actual flooring appears to be raised and sitting on 2x10's.
That part is still not computing for me, Chris, even with photos, and it sounds like something we need to know.

There are two separate and distinct areas of structural deflection to be considered for a stone tile installation. First is the joist deflection. For engineered joists such as you have, the only real way to determine the design deflection is to contact the manufacturer with the specific information about your installation. It's rare that a joist structure would meet the required L/720 requirement unless natural stone was specified as the floor covering in the original plans.

The second is the between-joist deflection. The MIA requires a double layer of subflooring, each correctly, and differently, installed. In your case, there are manufacturers of tiling substrates that would accept as little as nominal 3/8ths" plywood as your second layer for a natural stone tile installation. I would accept nothing less than nominal 1/2" plywood, but I don't manufacture any substrate material, eh?

Knowing the unsupported span of your joists will be required for the manufacturer to help you with the design deflection and might give us a hint as to what you're actually dealing with. Again, unlikely to meet stone tile industry standards, but it's your house and you can tile over anything you want. You may have the option of providing an additional support wall or beam under the joists to reduce the deflection.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-28-2016, 12:52 PM   #12
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The outside of the floor sits on a 2x10 that much I know due to the nature of the roof. These two photos go together, you can see the 2x10 that the flooring sits on and the truss support is shown more in detail in the 2nd picture.

From what I see the dormer space is supported by the 2x10 due to the truss support structure on the outside edges are supporting the floor and roof. This does not apply to any area other than my 8 dormers.
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Unread 02-28-2016, 02:47 PM   #13
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Hopefully someone else can help, Chris. I can't see any part of a floor structure in either of those two photos, I'm afraid.
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Unread 02-28-2016, 02:53 PM   #14
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Here are the full resolution pictures https://goo.gl/photos/BGFReqvc9jBfPiUQ7 The 1st picture you can see the silver flex and under it is the 2x10. The 3rd picture above the red and white pex lines you can see the tack plate that secures the joist together and above it is the subfloor, the 2nd picture you can see the subfloor and the truss or joist.
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Unread 02-28-2016, 04:14 PM   #15
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I will try to get in contact with my builder tomorrow to see if he can give me the information on the structure support and deflection. I would imagine he has all this information on file in his office.

If I use Schluter Ditra and Kerdi do I still need the cement backer board on the walls? I had thought about doing a curbless shower and but wasn't sure how much water would get splashed without a shower door.
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