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Unread 01-03-2021, 02:16 PM   #1
Elkski
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Tub delete? in Mbath + other design questions

Hi everyone. I guess I am ready to begin finalizing the planning on a master bath remodel.

The cons currently:

The room is over an unheated garage. I assume thus the carpet.
The jetted Acrylic tub has always been hygienically unusable.
The shower tile is cracking in the floor and exhibiting signs of water leaking.
The door craziness near the toilet and closet
The double door entry-- almost always left open and wastes space inside bedroom.

Future design requirements or Wishlist:
Heated tile floor. This will require 240 power for lowest energy usage but should be possible to go from meter over garage if Main box can handle this.
A more modern Shower with room for two.
Small bench in shower for washing feet and other activities.
Handheld and rain heads .
If tub is deleted then a makeup vanity area.
Possibly add pocket doors in entrance to bath and closet.
Requested to leave the toilet door in place but I may override this.
I did install a 400 or 600 CFM 6" inline fan with intake near toilet door and above shower so odor and humidity is quickly expelled.
Not sure if I should use tile or carpet in closet?

Random mulling's:
I worry the 5' x 4' shower is to small for two.
I can considering making the shower rectangular with the door opening towards the make-up vanity. I don't think this space is large enough for a doorless shower? I like to be able to get the shower hot and steamy.
I do have a Steamist SM-11 slave generator but I don't think I would have room for this on main electric box. There is a nice fireplace and hot tub. I did install a steamist SM-11 in the accessory apartment, completed 15 months ago. Someday I may live there.


as far as my budget estimation:
Tile 2000$. I do have Daltile acct. maybe more $ if I tile to the ceiling near the shower. It currently does get lots of condensate runs after a long shower but in 20 years this hasn't caused any paint peeling or look to bad.
Makeup desk 350$
tile heat aprox 27 sq ft , ditra heat, electric run 1200$
glass surround 2000-2500$ maybe I can tile so I can use a standard not custom unit.
New vanity 500$, granite countertop 450$ I will find a remnant and self install.
hand held 250$ mixer valve 250$. use existing kohler temp control valve?.
I have rain head but I'm not sure how I support it or plumb it so far from the wall.
materials for shower bench, curb , thin set, bench, I have a large roll of kerdi and most kerdi feedthroughs. 500$

2 way mirror 36 x 24 350$
Pocket doors Johnson 1500 200$ plus lots of my time. I did 4 in the apartment. New doors for pockets 200$

Total 8750$ not including paint and 2 faucets , sinks

I want to plan for resale of this house. its 3400 sq ft 4 bdrm all upstairs. 4700 total with permitted apartment in basement. It does have 2.5 baths. the other upstairs bath has a tub/shower.
I worry about doing the tub delete in the master but hear its popular. I've thought about a small footprint tub instead of the vanity and the pocket door wall can make that wall 6'
I worry my shower isn't big enough or fancy enough to take the place of a tub and shower?
Please toss met all your ideas and criticism.
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Unread 01-03-2021, 03:08 PM   #2
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Welcome back, Teddy, I'll offer my .02 on a few things.

General consensus is that omitting the tub in the master isn't a show stopper for most people as long as the home retains a usable tub in another bathroom. So, for some people it might be an issue, for most it won't be.

A 4X5 shower will accommodate two bodies pretty comfortably depending, of course, on the actual size of said bodies. Consider a floating corner bench to free up foot floor space. If you like your shower hot and steamy a doorless shower is not for you.

I think you are under-sizing the heated floor space. You want a heated floor everywhere your, and Mrs. Teddy's, feet will be, definitely including around the toilet. Though 240 service would be better I'm using 120 to heat approximately 60 SF. Still needs a dedicated line though.

500.00 for a quality double vanity isn't happening. By quality I mean soft close drawers and doors, plywood cabinet construction, 1/2" thick or better plywood bottom, drawers constructed with dove tail joinery, etc.

General rule of thumb for bathroom exhaust fans is 1 CFM per SF. At 400 yours is oversize, at 600 it's way, way oversized.
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Unread 01-03-2021, 04:35 PM   #3
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Thanks Dan, a quick look at wayfair and 900-1000$ is more in line for a 60" vanity. I'm thinking a free standing one.
I have read many bathroom design blogs that say the same about its ok to delete if one other tub available. What about the makeup vanity?
IS the 2 way mirror idea crazy? there would be blinds on the outside. I have seen this in many hotels and condos in my Asian travels..
as for the shower size. The planned occupants are both slim. I guess I could do another better bench. or maybe just a corner one. Its more for a shaving support in case the next occupant has hairy legs.
I should ask about a niche. any issues if on an outside wall? it would be a south facing wall unless I built a knee wall or wall opposite the toilet room.

I was planning on having tile heat in front of vanity for says 2.5' x 4.5' and going over to the shower and then fully in front of the toilet.. in this small toilet room you cant put your feet anywhere else. I figured you can make a dash for the closet. On Autocadd it seems like I can do this with the 27 or 32 but could use the 38. I was scrimping some for energy bill. The SO will have to put a carpet under her feet at the makeup desk. how did you use 60 sq ft in a bathroom? or were you wanting this to provide some room heat?

Maybe my inline fan is only 300 CFM but I am not really sure. I I know is I wanted something better than the noisy 40 CFM fart fan. I would have to go in the attic to check if you think this is a problem. but I have had no issues for 17 years. The furnace room with flue is nearby and so far no downdrafts have happened that I know of. The bathroom is 118 sq ft. it is on a nice timer where each button press adds 10 mins and I only use the 10 mins
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Unread 01-03-2021, 05:03 PM   #4
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elksi
I worry the 5' x 4' shower is to small for two.
Ah, the two person shower. The dream of every husband and wife. The man for obvious reasons since we are men and not very complicated. The wife, because that extra room makes it so much easier to give the dog (or stubborn child) a good wash. .

My double is 55”x38” and is plenty roomy without being cavernous. Definitely want a door unless you want unpleasant drafts.

We had a bench in the first double shower. The two new ones in the mega project have no benches because Mrs PC says she prefers to sit on park bench in winter when she wants a cold backside. Seems to feel the view is better.

Also missing from the new showers are niches. This was by mutual consensus. Me because they are a pain to do, her because she feels we don’t need more areas for colorful mold to grow.

The long granite shelf over the bump out for the hand held shower valve is very popular and is going in both of the new showers.

Agree with Dan on the cost of vanities and finish details, I was shocked at how much the wood and shiny parts of my bathroom cost.

Good luck with your project!
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Unread 01-03-2021, 05:17 PM   #5
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glad to hear my shower size is not to small. A real big shower takes so long to warm up. What is this bump out for the hand held valve? I really want all the ugly shampoo bottles hidden and not on the floor. so maybe I build a 3' tall wall with a leg rest shelf at say 20" high that would be mostly hidden from outside.
I was hoping to Use the chrome and porcelain fixtures again.
Did you go with 34" tall vanity ? I'm sure this will be an argument here between the 5'11" and the 5' 2" person.
Also I am thinking one sink is better use of counter space. how often do both people need the sink at the same time?
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Unread 01-03-2021, 05:22 PM   #6
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I've not shopped Wayfair, Teddy, so I don't know how much detail they provide on build or hardware quality for the vanities they re-sell. I do like free standing ones though, looks more like furniture.

Make up vanity? I dunno. I suppose it depends on the habits of the person applying the make up. Not that I have any first hand experience but I'd think that such a station would also need to be equipped to provide sufficient lighting for the task at hand. Personally I view such stations the same as the small "work" desks people incorporate into kitchen designs. While they may look nice their functionality is dubious. But that's just me.

I'm not a fan of the visual bulkiness of monument style benches, nor of the toe space they consume. But different butts like different designs.

I, too, have seen the 2 way mirrors, and I'm not sure I get it. If you provide blinds on one side will you really be consistently raising and lowering the blind when openness is wanted and privacy is needed? I could see that happening if the blind was motorized. Again, me.

You don't really want a niche on an outside wall if it gets cold where you are. I just so happened to be building a knee as part of my design so that's where mine went.

My bathroom is 14'X7', so close to 100 SF. One of the 7' ends being the shower, consuming roughly 25 SF. Minus approx 15 SF for the unheated area under the 10' long area of vanity left me with roughly 60 SF of heated floor. It is completely open.

Remote mounted in-line fans are fantastic, really helps isolate the noise of the fan from the living space. But I suspect a 300, 400, or 600 CFM fan still roars a bit, depending on how far from the intake grill it is. At full boogie a 300-600 CMF fan is removing a lot of air - already paid for conditioned air. And as you mentioned, the back draft potential. Moot points, those, if you've already been using it and are happy with it.
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Unread 01-03-2021, 06:10 PM   #7
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The fan is whisper quiet but it will hold a 8.5 x 11 paper up on the 6" round intakes. Probably not as high of CFM as I originally stated. I do sear by these as ventilation is never an issue. I actually have never seen a 2 way mirror into the bathroom, just windows and usually had blinds on the inside. But If I do the vanity idea it would need to be 2 way. I have one of those worthless kitchen desks. it did look great for resale but is hardly ever used as a desk.. it has the junk drawer and nice countertop. IT is in a narrow high traffic area. I've considered building drawers under it. Not so much for make up as she who motivates me doesn't use or need much but she has more creams and potions than I have lubricants in the garage chem cabinet. As you see not lots of storage here ..thus the thinking of going with one sink so we would have 2 banks of vanity drawers. I've thought of a medicine cabinet in one vanity wall. Towel space is also limited. 2 towel racks in the toilet room and they seem to dry quickly there
The center entry into the closet and the commode room, and window limits my redesign ideas. I have considered making the window smaller but then you open up the outside can or worms. I've never used wayfair. I now see that i should budget 1200-1500 for vanity and counter and sink.
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Unread 01-03-2021, 06:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkski
...Heated tile floor. This will require 240 power for lowest energy usage...
Power consumption usage is the same with 240v or 120v system. There is no energy savings. But you will have to spend more money on wire between the breaker box and bathroom with 240v. Considering this 27 sq/ft system is 1/5th the size of what you could max out with 120v feed, I see no reason to use double the space in the breaker box and more wire with 240v.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkski
I worry the 5' x 4' shower is to[o] small for two....

I worry my shower isn't big enough or fancy enough to take the place of a tub and shower?
while I’m not a fan of whirlpools because most of them see little actual use, they do give an initial impression of luxury. If you’re looking for reselling, I’d share your above concerns. I’d make sure to create a shower with grandeur in terms of size/curbless/great glass work/niche/bench/etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkski
Please toss met all your ideas...
About the tub removal: I’ve heard what many have with, ‘my realtor told me I have to have a tub or my house won’t sell’ a million times. But my experience contradicts this statement. In all my years of remodeling bathrooms, I’ve converted tons of tubs to showers. But never the other way around...or added a tub where there was none. Not once.

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Unread 01-03-2021, 06:23 PM   #9
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What Tonto said, nice showers sell bathrooms.

Per your question, I’ve include a couple pictures of the shelf over faucet control. That’s an exterior wall so the control is inside the conditioned area.
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I agree with Dan on the specialty areas; we had a small work area in kitchen for years that just gathered mail. Real work always happened at the table or the counters.

I used a couple inline fans for my recent project. I like the ability to place the motor/fan assembly in a area when it can be maintained. But as Dan said, can’t escape the noise of the air moving through the pipe. Sounds like yours may be a bigger size / slower speed.
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Unread 01-03-2021, 11:35 PM   #10
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Thanks everyone.
Should I really consider curbless is a for sure requirement? I did curbless with a linear drain downstairs but needed a ramp. What is the minimum curb height I could use? Would just an inch above the sloped shower tile be ok? Something like curb of 3.5-4"?
Even a 38' heater line is only 400 w. The cable length would be about 50' as a first guess. I guess I was mistaken thinking I needed 2 phase power for less energy usage per watt. Not sure why I thought this.
As for the tub delete being ok I am feeling it's better than those freestanding tubs which would be a pain to clean around, behind plus then I would need an instant water heater. There is a small furnace room behind the sink. This would be the ultimate as the 50 gal water heater is 2 floors down.
On that last picture I see the glass is cut around the granite ledge. Any idea how much extra that cost?
I didn't go frameless glass on the steam shower because I worried about steam leakage. I looked into one of those glass direct places but went with a local company but I measured and installed it.

Looking at a direct frameless shower company online. For a 84" tall , 36" right side, angled door way of 36" with a 30" door and a 24" left side. why would a 40" knee wall be 3700$ while the all glass one 1800$? I specified the same overall size but with a 40" knee wall across from the toilet room. I figured I could put a shampoo shelf, leg rest, or bench mostly out of sight. It would be less glass. Ok so not standard glass so maybe 200$ extra but double?
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Unread 01-04-2021, 11:03 AM   #11
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I put a Wayfair vanity in our hall bath last year. It is 5ft double vanity and was $1000. I have a picture of it under my hall bathroom thread. It is well made but not super high quality. Drawers are soft close but they are also kind of hard to open, tops of doors dont quite line up even when I tried to adjust them. I just started on our master bath and we received a quote from our local kitchen cabinet store for a 6 ft vanity. It is going to be a lot more but better quality. We are getting rid of our tub. We never use it. My logic is that I am not going to design and build a bathroom for someone else instead of for us.

I am a few days ahead of you. Over the weekend I removed the shower, tub and tile floor.
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Unread 01-04-2021, 11:44 AM   #12
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good to hear of another tub dumper. I'm afraid I maybe months away. i tend to plan forever. Did call my electrician buddy to stop by for a chat on the tile heat run. I will try to measure the joist depth and span today and type I think its solid pine 2x10's with an 11 span 16" on centers. this is L/687 I also filled the tub all the way Probably 60-70 gallons and had a tape hanging below it in the garage and measured no deflection but the crack between the tile surround and tub did get 1/16" bigger

at 1000$ I will be tempted to make my own cabinet.
did you go with 30" or 34" tall?
Also do I really need the twin sinks?
No one freaked out about the window yet.. yes the window lines up with the view from the pillow of the master bed.

what do you guys think of the double door entrance changing to a 36" pocket door? this entrance looks grand but when both doors are open which is always it means loss of 7' of wall space for pictures. one door hides the house intercom system. I know pocket doors will add lots of work and drywall dust in the bedroom and closet .. but it seems like it would be worth it. I would be able to use a wider make up vanity.
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Unread 01-04-2021, 05:53 PM   #13
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I measured the space up from a light fixture in the garage and got 12.5" with 5/8' drywall that means they are probably the BCI 11 7/8" joists like much of the house. I swear I recall I had BCI 45's. I just checked my first post back in 2007 and thats what I said the marking on them said. I assumed they were similar to BCI 450's at that time They are supported by a big beam in the garage between bay one and two and the other end on the house wall so 11' span. I recall they were about 1.8" wide. I may need to call boise cascade on these 22 year old beams.
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Unread 01-04-2021, 06:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
did you go with 30" or 34" tall? Also do I really need the twin sinks?
34-1/2” plus countertop / 36” total. Depth is 22”. My wife and I both tall so we like the tall counters.

The double sink is between you and your boss. We initially thought about single but ended up with double with window between the sinks. I also bowled out either side of the window to make room for vent lines and to break up the long wall. Worked out great.

As a cost point for your budget, the two sink base plus drawer set that make up the cherry vanity ran about $1700. The sliding shower down was around $1600 installed. I think when I totaled everything up, the chrome bits (lights, faucets, shower fixtures), glass (mirrors, shower door) granite along with the vanity were around 80% of total budget.

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Unread 01-04-2021, 07:56 PM   #15
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Very good wall design. That vanity looks longer than 60" is it cherry? . 60" isn't much room for two sinks and much else.
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