Using Siloxane on sanded grout in shower

[Venator]

Greetings,

I've used water based silane-siloxane sealer before on exterior masonry and was greatly impressed by the product.

A short explanation of why I so impressed with the product, and why I think it'd be IDEAL for sealing grout in showers:

I have an exterior brick wall on my home, and had a window leaking into the wall for some time until I discovered it. In remediating the mold and rot, I had to rip out the drywall, OSB, and insulation from the inside of the dwelling. After I fixed the windows, and while the brick wall was still exposed from inside the home, I tested the window repairs by setting a sprinkler spraying directly onto the exterior brick façade, and watched for drips from inside. Well, to my dismay, although the windows no longer leaked, water was dripping everywhere and was not migrating though cracks in mortar, but directly through my intact bricks! I subsequently selected a silane-siloxane sealer and applied it to several hundred square feet of the exterior brick and mortar with just a garden sprayer. After drying, I did the test again, an NO WATER came through the bricks at all!

So, this product is unique in that it's both a surface sealer and penetrant that migrates into concrete and masonry materials (grout, brick, concrete). It's hydrophobic, vapor permeable, last for years, and will not alter the surface characteristics (sheen, color, etc) of the material to which it's applied.

Maybe I've missed it, but I can't seem to find products for grout that contain these compounds and wonder why????

Any expert thoughts??

Thanks!

[cx]

Welcome, Norman.

If you're quick, you might be able to tell us which of your products you're here to advertise before a moderator decides you should be banned.

[KarenA01]

Hi Norman,

The reason you don't hear about them is that they don't advertise their chemistry but this sealer (although solvent based) is the type of sealer you are referring to to:
https://www.drytreat.com/sealers/res...ain-proof.html

It also has other ingredients as well.

I think this is the oldest one of that class. They may have a water based one now...

I'm sure other manufacturers now make water based ones with that chemistry as well...

Basically any sealer that has a 15+ year warranty likely uses that chemistry.

Karen

[Venator]

I ain't advertising nothin. You'll notice I've not mentioned a product name, since there are several on the market. By the way, I'm a software engineer, and have no interest in selling products.

Also, after making the post, I did at least find one grout specific product that says it contains the compounds that worked so great for me. So, maybe what I'm saying is common knowledge...again, I'm just an IT guy.

[cx]

Cynical CX, aye!

My apologies then. Cynical goes with the territory after 20 years or so on a site such as this. Guess it was the company name that gave me the false clue.

That being the case, do tell us the name of the product you used that gave you the results you were impressed with. A link would be even better.

As for your brick wall not being leak-proof, the industry has long been aware of that. It's the reason we always put a rain screen on the exterior wall sheathing and leave an air gap between rock or brick and the house wall and leave weep holes at the bottom of the wall, fully expecting water to penetrate the masonry veneer, stopping it, and giving it a convenient exit. Can't say I've ever even though of trying to keep the water from penetrating the veneer.

As for an additive for grout, you're not gonna keep 100 percent of the moisture from penetrating, so the "sealer" must also allow moisture vapor to pass through readily to allow evaporation, 'specially in today's waterproof shower assemblies. Perhaps your compound wouldn't do that? Might be one reason why the grout sealer people haven't used it. Or not.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[Venator]

The exterior wall had: Brick, 30# roofing fabric, then the studs. I suppose there was a small gap between the inside of the brick and the felt paper. Weeps were installed at intervals, but like a lot of jobs, the bottom of the wall had a bunch of mortar globs down in the bottom, partially negating the effectiveness of them. Actually the wall worked fine; the bloody windows failed! But, at the time I thought it was a complete train wreck to allow that much water to penetrate unabated. The product was Armor SX5000WB. The re-testing showed the inside of the brick wall was a dry as the Sahara. The DOT in several states approve and use this product on their bridges and roadways. When I complete my new shower, I will brush that $64 a gallon (must contain Unicorn tears) stuff into every single grout joint.

[cx]

One thing they don't address is vapor permeability for that product. Perhaps they don't care at all for their recommended uses? And I don't know that any of the commonly marketed tile grout sealers use that chemical technology. Don't think I've ever seen it mentioned by any of them, but those companies do tend to be rather secretive about their product content. For all I know there might be products using those same chemicals.

Note that the DryTreat product Karen mentioned does make a point of it being very breathable.

Interesting all.

[Venator]

I agree 100% CX with your assertion it's essential the product will allow vapor to pass. Otherwise, bad things will happen.

Check out this link at Concrete.org

https://www.concrete.org/Portals/0/F...-%20Selley.pdf

and

https://www.masonrymagazine.com/blog...-management-2/

The other important point is you won't blow yourself up with a water based product, OR reduce your IQ by breathing the shite in!

What say you CX?

[KarenA01]

Originally Posted by CX

And I don't know that any of the commonly marketed tile grout sealers use that chemical technology

They don't get into detail but if you look at the SDS you find some do...

DryTreat Stain-Proof marketed as a stone and grout sealer does (and has it origins from the usage Norman describes)

From the SDS it contains:
https://www.drytreat.com/assets/pdf/...IGINAL_USA.pdf
octyltriethoxysilane
isobutyltriethoxysilane

As well as another chemical to promote the bonding reaction.

At the chemical bond level, that is the same chemistry (BTW I am a chemist )

BTW, while Norman thinks the product he found is expensive, it is much cheaper than ones specifically sold for grout and granite/stone sealing with similar chemistry... and for grout it probably is comparable in performance.


-Karen

[cx]

Thanks, Karen. I'll mark that down under my "something new every day."

[Edit] Didn't see your post #8 when I responded to Karen's post, Norman. A lot of good information in there, I'm sure, and if I pretend to actually understand the part where we convert an inorganic surface to an organic interface, I might be able to pretend to understand a lot more of it. Ms. Karen likely understands just what you might be talking about.

I did learn that Siloxane, which I frequently see referenced, is the same as Silicone. Probably some future benefit to my knowing that. Seems to me we've been told that the ceramic tile products sealer industry has gotten completely away from Silicone-based products, but I disremember why.

Originally Posted by Norman

OR reduce your IQ by breathing the shite in!

'Fraid you're about 75 years too late with that advice.

[Venator]

Between the three of us we'll get this figured out!

Thanks Karen and CX.

[KarenA01]

Originally Posted by CX

I'm sure, and if I pretend to actually understand the part where we convert an inorganic surface to an organic interface, I might be able to pretend to understand a lot more of it

Organic in this case just means that you have carbon hydrogen bonds...

The siloxanes used have an inorganic part (with a Silicon oxygen bond) attached to an organic part (carbon chain with only carbons and hydrogens) ...

The inorganic part (with the presence of catalyst) reacts with and bonds to the inorganic surface... That organic part very much does not like water and repels it (It's hydrophobic).... and that is how it keeps the water (and other polar liquids) out of the pores...

But the carbon chains used are too small to clog the pores so it can still breath, unlike topical sealers or sealers that completely fill the pores.

The impregnating sealers that get real fancy in addition ALSO use some siloxanes with carbon chains that have a lot of fluorines on the carbons in the mix... and that makes THOSE linkages not like oil (fats, oils, non polar things in general )...

So the combination makes the stone, grout, granite, etc both hydrophobic and oleophobic (Oil phobic) when applied. That is why those can resist stains so well when applied to granite counter tops...

I don't know if if one really needs an oleophobic sealer in the shower, but if I go with the crackled glass mosaic, I might use one that is both to be on the safe side, and certainly use it on the granite vanity top.

- Karen

[MAPEI - Technical Service]

It looks like the chemistry-end of all the comments here are pretty well handled!

So rather than expound on any of that, I will say that siloxane technology is sometimes used in the chemistry of tile, stone, and grout sealers.
We have three in our lineup:

UltraCare Penetrating Plus SB Stone and Porcelain Tile Sealer

UltraCare Enhancing Stone Sealer

UltraCare Enhancing Plus Stone Sealer

The first does not change the look of the stone or grout. The second and third in the list will darken and enrich the color of stone and grout.

If you are set on using a siloxane based sealer, we would suggest finding one (ours or otherwise) that is designed for use on tile, stone, and grout rather than using a concrete or block sealer. This will greatly lower the margin for error, since it is made for the task at hand.

I hope that helps!