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Unread 08-28-2003, 08:00 PM   #1
focus57
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is the plumber correct?

I am doing all the work on a bathroom except for the plumbing.
I will have the plumber set all the pipes and they also want to install the shower pan (membrane).

this plumber wants to set the membrane on to a flat wood floor, then he said I could do the deck mud and set my pitch.

told him the procedure I follow is to install the first layer of pitched deck mud, then install the membrane. then I can install the final layer of deck mud.

he told me that is not the correct way to build a shower and that the membrane should only be installed on a flat wood floor.

not sure what to do now - do I install that way or forget what he told me and do the deck mudprior to calling them for the pan.

guess I could do the pan myself if I have to.

another note: it is working out that the entire floor may be covered with the HardiBacker, then the shower frame with be built. this will imply that the initial shower floor base will be a flat surface of HardiBacker.

what do you think

thanks

Nino
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Unread 08-28-2003, 08:05 PM   #2
Jason_Butler
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Get rid of your plumber....or at least don't let him do the pan.

I think I see your situation. I answered your other thread regarding the use of Hardi vs Durock as well.

There is no need to use CBU over the shower portion of the subfloor. Build your preslope over the subfloor ( and yes you definitely need a preslope....I don't care what the plumber says), then the liner, CBU on the walls, deck mud,etc.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with having CBU under your presloped deck...it's just not necessary

Jason
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Unread 08-28-2003, 08:09 PM   #3
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tell your plumber to read the plbg. code.. 1/4" per ft. slope to drain
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Unread 08-28-2003, 08:11 PM   #4
Sonnie Layne
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that only goes to prove that all plumbers are wrong, except for me of course

your plumber ain't tellin' you right. Period, The End. That don't make him a bad plumber, mind you, just keep him away from a bag of mortar and you'll likely have a good relationship.
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Unread 08-28-2003, 08:14 PM   #5
focus57
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thanks

thanks - that is what I was thinking, just wanted to be sure.
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Unread 08-28-2003, 08:16 PM   #6
T_Hulse
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Jason is right. Don't let the plumber near the shower. Without the preslope the pan can collect stagnant water & breed mold so much it will eventually stink & it's impossible to clean through 2" of mud. If you can get your hands on a TCA (Tile Council of America) handbook you can show him a clear drawing of how it should be done. If the plumber doesn't know this then he isn't qualified to even touch the liner.
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Unread 08-28-2003, 09:22 PM   #7
focus57
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just received th book - think i may be doing this myself.

one question?
how would any water get through the pan liner?
I understand what you are saying and was wondering about mold and other problems with the liner right on the plywood floor.
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Unread 08-28-2003, 09:55 PM   #8
Gil Smith
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Water's not supposed to get through the pan liner.....it will however get through your tile and the top mud layer, where it will be directed to the drain by the sloped liner. Without a sloped liner water will stand and cause all those bad things to happen. You can place the liner on plywood.....but a mud preslope is easier to build than a plywood preslope.
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Unread 08-28-2003, 10:04 PM   #9
focus57
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ok - got it
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Unread 08-29-2003, 06:02 AM   #10
tileguytodd
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Every plumbers pan i have seen i have torn out.No exceptions.Around here they got to the point where they asked who was doing the tile.When they found out they just said we wont do the pan,he'll just tear it out anyways
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Unread 08-29-2003, 06:36 AM   #11
OnAMission
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How do you get to be a REAL shower pan guy???

I just want to know something ... where are the likes of you guys when they are building most new homes? Do ya'll just work for those fancy builders on those 'rich' people's homes?

Or do you just rip out the messes that some other unenlightened soul created when they went through the motions of installing this stuff properly ... and start over and do it RIGHT?

And how come they are so unenlightened ... the plumbers AND the tile people sometimes? What makes you guys so different? How do you get to be a REAL 'tile guy?' and do QUALITY shower pans

I tried to talk to the tile guy working on one of the new homes in my neighborhood about some of the work I had seen that he had done ... as well as what he was presently doing. I gave up after the first sentence. I wonder if he will still be around by the time I learn to speak Spanish?

Cathy
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Unread 08-29-2003, 07:00 AM   #12
tileguytodd
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Becoming a real Tileguy or how to be a glutton for punishment
2 ways that i know of
School of hard knocks-Keep screwing up until you get it right
Hard Knock University-Find an old italian tileman, do 3 years of apprenticeship and if you survive the head slap for everything you do wrong,your a full fledged tileguy

Continuing education is the number one thing that makes a tile mechanic the best in his field.Those who have an inborn desire to become the best at what they do will seek out and find ways to continually educate themselves on the changing nature of the industry.The smart ones will also seek to gain knowledge of old proven methods that have been around since our country was young.Experiance is the number one factor in making a good tileman a great one.You dont get the experiance unless your good because you dont get enough differant types of work.without knowledge your limited on the type of tilework you can take on.Now no matter how much experiance one has, there will always be some situation that you havent run across.Sound mechanical training and a few brain cells still functioning will see the experianced tileman through most of these(a little help from above never hurts either ) Having a pool of resources like we have here is also a step in the right direction as many trained heads are better than 1.So how do you become great?Ive only worn the toes out of about 25 pairs of work boots so far,When i hit 50 pairs, I'll tell you
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Unread 08-29-2003, 07:45 AM   #13
OnAMission
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Quote:
Originally posted by tileguytodd
Becoming a real Tileguy or how to be a glutton for punishment

.....Those who have an inborn desire to become the best at what they do will seek out and find ways to continually educate themselves on the changing nature of the industry.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Todd. I guess I see where part of the problem is ... at least in new construction in Texas. Our general contractors aren't required to be licensed, so I suspect that many of them aren't up-to-date themselves on best practices for each trade they interact with.

Then ... they 'trust' their sub-contractors to be responsible for knowing the proper methods to utilize and assume the jobs are being done correctly. Then there's more than one trade involved in the total picture of creating this masterpiece and none of them seem to understand the relationship between their little part in the process and how it relates to the next person who comes along.

Then when that first year is up ... and things like shower problems become evident after that time ... the 'warranty' period is over ... the builder is no longer responsible ... and even if they were ... the person who did the work is long gone ... and doesn't benefit from the 'experience' of having to repair the failure. As far as he knows ... everything is wonderful ... and he moves on to the next builder ... in the next subdivision ... never to know what havoc he leaves behind.

It seems that we live in a disposable society in which you really can't judge a book by it's cover. The cover looks great ... but as homeowners ... we don't have the priviledge of opening that cover to check the content on the pages ... pretty soon, the cover is damaged and soiled ... and as you carefully open it ... hoping to not be opening Pandora's Box ... you discover that the author wasn't quite who and what you had hoped for and many of the pages must be destroyed and replaced.

I'm just glad there are people out there like you guys to salvage the remains and/or share your wisdom with DIY'ers ... whether it be tile and/or shower work or other components of our homes that affect us.

Cathy
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Unread 08-29-2003, 01:35 PM   #14
Davy
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Around my area the preslope is only required in some cities to meet code. Most plumbers don't want to do it and don't care if there is ever a problem. It takes a extra trip for them, plus they don't like carrying tools for making cement. Also it takes them twice as long to put down a preslope than to install the pan. They just don't want to except the necessity of something if it requires them to do more work.
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Unread 08-29-2003, 02:11 PM   #15
Sonnie Layne
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Cathy,

Follow the money. Builders aren't gonna pay me 2-3 times what they can pay the Jimenez brothers. Quality of the work is most often buried in the preparation phase. Same reason I don't do make-ready painting. No one but high end remodelers or home owners will pay my price. It's really odd, they can pay me once, or pay someone else three times. Ends up same amount of money is changing hands.

I know it's exasperating to find your shower leaks, wood floors are buckling and all your ceiling fans are on the floor after 18 months of occupancy. A large proportion of my life is spent being the bearer of bad news and making repairs. Experience and education go hand in hand 'round here.... I get educated on every job
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