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Unread 09-25-2007, 08:01 AM   #46
organic_donna
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Brian,
I spoke to the Schulter people and they said the Ditra cannot be classified as a anti-fracture product.
After speaking to them about what I need I am more confused than before. Now I have to choose a color for the Dilex-AS and I don't really even understand what that is. They said I need to install expansion joints and Kerdi band on the seams of the floor. To me this is all very confusing. Will my contractor get all these instructions? I will use the Ditra on the floor but is the Kerdi really that superior to Wonderboard? That is what my contractor uses.
Donna
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Unread 09-25-2007, 08:55 AM   #47
Brian in San Diego
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Donna,

Maybe I need to take a step back and determine what you are trying to accomplish. First of all, you cannot use wonderboard on a concrete slab. The Ditra is used to provide isolation from the slab and in your case a means to separate the cutback from the stone you are planning on installing. The only reason you would need to kerdi-band the seams of the Ditra is if you wanted to make it waterproof. I haven't seen that concern expressed in your thread. You can set the stone directly on the slab with a modified thinset. I am not sure if the cutback may bleed through or not. The Ditra would insure this didn't happen. I don't believe it would get through the seams if they aren't covered with kerdi-band. If it were mine, I would install the Ditra with Versabond and set the tile with Ditra set from Hydroment. I know this goes against Schluter's recommendation, but I worry more about the bond over cutback than whether the lightly modified Versabond would cure under the Ditra. If you want to eliminate all of this concern scarify the slab and remove the cutback mechanically. With all of it gone, you could set directly on the slab. There may be some risk of stone cracking because of the lack of isolation. In times gone by, all stone was set on a mud bed over a sand base isolating the stone That's what the Ditra does. It allows for unequal movement (think expansion/contraction) of the two different materials and protects the grout and stone from undo shear stresses.

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Unread 09-25-2007, 05:22 PM   #48
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Brian,
I live on the 18th floor in a high rise built in the 70's. The floors and ceiling are concrete. The building has some movement from high winds (Chicago). The bathroom is being gutted. I am installing a shower/tub combo. The limestone will be on the walls of the shower, on the floor of the bathroom and to the ceiling of the wall where the vanity sits.
The Kerdi is for the shower walls and that is where I was referring to putting up Wonderboard instead of Kerdi. The Ditra will be on the floor. The people at Schulter told me I needed a Kerdi Band seam on the floor.
That's where I stand. It looks like I will put the unmodified thinset, then the Kerdi and the Hydroment, is that correct? Is Kerdi for the shower area far superior to the Wonderboard?
Donna
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Unread 09-25-2007, 09:15 PM   #49
Brian in San Diego
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Donna,

O.K., I think I'm back on board. I think I may have confused your thread with another that had some similarities. So you are installing a new tub and it will have a shower in it as well. Your contractor is familiar with wonderboard. IMO kerdi is superior, but at the same time unless you have a progressive tile setter, I don't think I would want to "make" him use kerdi if he wasn't onboard with it's benefits. As long as he uses a vapor barrier with the CBU (Wonderboard) for the tub surround you should be fine. The only benefit to using kerdi-band on the seams of the Ditra is if you were trying to waterproof it. In a typical bathroom, if you flooded the floor the water would run out the door where there's no ditra and do damage there. Waterproofing the Ditra install is senseless unless you have a way of containing the water or if it's being used on an exterior deck and you don't want water to get past the seams.

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Unread 09-26-2007, 06:04 AM   #50
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Brian,
You implied that setting the limestone is "different" using the Kerdi in the shower. I want him to do what he is experienced with regard to the tiles. I think I'll send him the Kerdi installation directions, but I don't want to push him into it because he is really busy with other projects.
The Ditra is another story. My main concerns for the floor are movement and effloressence. I don't think that it will be hard to sell him on the Ditra installation. Someone mentioned that the limestone is heavy, (it is!) and may settle and become uneven. What did you say he should use to prevent that from happening?
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Unread 09-26-2007, 06:10 AM   #51
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tiles

Brian,
I went back and read one of your posts. you said to use Ditra set by Hydroment to prevent lippage, correct?
Donna
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Unread 09-26-2007, 06:52 AM   #52
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Donna,

I will tell you what I did when I set my 18x18 travertine in my master bath. I used Custom's Marble & Granite, a medium bed mortar. ALL medium bed mortars are modified thinsets and therefore should NOT be used over ditra. When I was at the Schluter training we were told that the Ditra set thinset could be applied as thick as 3/4" (the same as medium bed mortars). It leads me to believe it may perform like a medium bed mortar, but I have not used it nor do I have any data to back up this claim. The reason I elected to use it was to prevent lippage from the stones "setting" after being placed. The advantage I had was that I didn't walk on it for over 72 hours and didn't plan on grouting it for a week, but it turned out to be almost six weeks before it got grouted. I think that stone "breathes" a little and it allows the modified thinset to cure properly. I took up one tile 12 hours after it was set and broke it in the process. I felt that given time the modified thinset would cure properly. But because most installations have to be done quickly (time is money) I believe Schluter has to set their "rules" on those types of installations.

I didn't go back and read the entire thread, but setting limestone on kerdi isn't "different" than setting it on a CBU. Same principle.

Brian
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Unread 09-26-2007, 04:32 PM   #53
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Brian,
Thanks for all of your help. I'm exhausted and we haven't even started yet. I am going to most likely use Ditra Set by Hydroment. They said Custom's Masterblend was good too. I saw the Ditra today at HD. All that fuss over some orange plastic.
Wish me luck,
Donna
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Unread 09-26-2007, 09:25 PM   #54
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Donna,

I wouldn't touch Custom's MasterBlend with a ten foot pole! Do NOT let your contractor use it. If you are going to use a Custom unmodified I would recommend PremiumPlus...nothing less. I think I'd use Laticrete 317 over PremiumPlus.

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Unread 09-27-2007, 05:28 PM   #55
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Brian,
Can I just use the Ditraset? I'm getting tired of all these mortar choices.

Donna
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Unread 09-27-2007, 08:31 PM   #56
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Donna,

Yes, the Ditra set is fine. You mentioned the MasterBlend, not me!

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Unread 09-28-2007, 06:20 AM   #57
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The rep at Schulter told me to use the Masterblend. Can I use Versabond under the Ditra and Ditrablend over the Ditra.
Donna
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Unread 09-28-2007, 06:36 AM   #58
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Yes, Versabond under and Ditraset over the Ditra.
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Unread 09-28-2007, 06:46 AM   #59
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Donna,

Can we stop beating this horse...I think it's dead?! The consensus on this forum is that MasterBlend is a lousy thinset. I would trust the years of experience here over one rep's opinion. By the letter of the law MasterBlend is fine, but the experiences here say it isn't very good. Also by the letter of the law you must use an unmodified thinset both under and over the Ditra when applying it to concrete. Can you use Versabond (modified) to set the Ditra...yes, but it'd void your warranty. To keep your warranty in tact use one of these thinsets to set the Ditra...Custom PremiumPlus, Mapei Kerabond, Laticrete 317 (or Megabond if you get it at Lowe's) or Ditra Set. On top of the Ditra with the limestone I would use the Ditra Set (again, if you want to keep your warranty in tact).

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Unread 09-29-2007, 06:21 AM   #60
organic_donna
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Brian,
Thank you for all of your advice and being so patient with me. I've had installs go very bad in the past and I like to be very well educated. I think I understand all about thinset and Ditra at this point. Thank you again, I'm sure you helped more people with this post than just me.
Donna
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