Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 11-21-2006, 09:12 PM   #1
NastyBurn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 242
Pete's Swanstone Shower Project

Ok. We're well on our way with the Swanstone Solid Surface Shower base project... 32x60.

I have some basic double-check questions...

2x4 construction walls. I have stapled up 6 mil plastic with monel staples.

Next I've screwed up 1/2" Durock. I have left the plastic long (for now) because I don't know if it should stop above or below the lip of the pan.

The pan is set in 80 lbs of High Strength mortar/stucco mix and is solid (like a rock) when you knock on it, it feels like you're knocking on a solid rock (I'm very happy and proud of this fact!)

So... am I on the right track? I hope to have my GF take some pics since the ceiling is an unusual situation that I'd like you folks to see...

Thanks,

Pete
NastyBurn is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 11-21-2006, 10:31 PM   #2
Mike2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: LaConner, Washington
Posts: 13,694
Pete, how did you bring the Durock down onto the shower pan flange?

Is the pan notched into the studs or are the studs above furred out so that the Durock overlaps the flange without bending inward?
Mike2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-22-2006, 09:01 AM   #3
NastyBurn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 242
I installed the Durock according the Swanstone directions. The Durock stops 1/8"-1/4" from the top of the lip. I did not notch the studs or fir anything out. I had read about that here, but followed this:

http://www.swanstone.com/FAQs/instal...09_Revised.pdf

Thanks,

Pete
NastyBurn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-22-2006, 11:56 AM   #4
northdenvertom
Registered User
 
northdenvertom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Littleton, CO
Posts: 59
Hi Pete,

That type of installation is generally frowned upon here. Different manufactures have different instructions, some suggest "lippage" some do not. The most uniformily agreed upon method is to have the CBU cover the inside lip of the shower pan in addition to a required vapor/moisture barrier. However, in some cases, this is not practical due to framing or other pre-existing issues. In those cases, it is recommended that the CBU stop at the upper lip and the moisture barrier extends into the pan. I did that and siliconed the poly to the lip. Kudos on the mortor pan, it does make a huge difference. See also my controversial thread located here:

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=41933

I'll probably post more photos this weekend
northdenvertom is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-22-2006, 03:20 PM   #5
NastyBurn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 242
Well looky there! We're in the SAME boat, aren't we!

Hmmm... Well I have to admit that having the board OVER the flange sounds like a good idea in theory. I'd like to know why it is not advocated to do so by Swanstone... I tried to call them, but they must have gone home early for T-Day...

Anyway, any ideas why this isn't advocated by Swanstone?

At this point, I have 3/16" between the studs and the lip. And 80 lbs of mortar mix. The bottom of the Durock isn't done yet (well, one side is done, but I can deal with that if I must...

Logic tells me to have the vapor barrier come down below the lip. Durock above lip, and then tile down to the lip, and silicone caulk between tile and lip... heck, I think I would silicone between the Durock and the lip too... (embed the vapor barrier into the silicone) and then tile...

Waddathink?
NastyBurn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-22-2006, 04:11 PM   #6
northdenvertom
Registered User
 
northdenvertom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Littleton, CO
Posts: 59
Pete,

Swanstone method per their instructions is very piss-poor way of installing a preformed shower pan. Note that is doesn't have a vapor barrier and uses drywall. It is that exact installation method that got me in trouble with all the water damage. Albeit, it lasted for 29.5 years.

The whole idea behind the moisture barrier is to prevent what happened in my shower, so the better waterproofed that lip is, the better the overall. I'm sure there is also another underlying reason for dropping the CBU into the lip - possibly for a better tile installation with the full tile being over the CBU. My original tiles were 4" tiles, so that my have compounded the failure. My new tiles are 6.5" tiles. The con I see about it is if you have to remove the shower pan for some reason, that will be very difficult. Maybe the pros can chime in on this one.

I siliconed the vapor barrier into the lip as you described. I don't know about the CBU, it's designed to be porous. The question that I have is that everyone states to caulk the bottom of the tile between the pan. One of the references I found said not to caulk so that gives the water behind the CBU a path to the drain. It also gives a path to behind the CBU which I think is bad.
northdenvertom is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-22-2006, 04:18 PM   #7
NastyBurn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 242
Yeah, I see what you're saying about not sealing it at the bottom (where the tile meets the pan)... I say BS on that one. Leaving that big of gap wide open can't be a good idea... we're talking 32"x60" in my case... My attitude is that when you do a traditional tub you seal where the tub meats the wall... hence this is the same application.

I'm anxious to hear from some of the other folks here on this one.

Pete
NastyBurn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-22-2006, 10:57 PM   #8
Tool Guy - Kg
Moderator -- Wisconsin Kitchen & Bath Remodeler
 
Tool Guy - Kg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oak Creek, WI
Posts: 23,230
I thought I'd write a book......

Ah, yes...Swanstone pans. Installed my fair share of them.

Definitely have the moisture barrier drape over the lip of the pan and silicone the back of it. You don't want the barrier laid flat to the wall where moisture could get to the framing or floor.

But don't worry about not getting the Durock furred-out so much. Yes it's technically a finer way to install and gives you a slightly more support to the bottom edge of the bottom tiles, but I wouldn’t overly concern myself about it with your shower pan. And this method of furring just isn't practical in many layouts of many bathrooms. You can normally fur out the back wall, and perhaps one side wall of the shower, but not the 2nd side wall. If both sidewalls are separated from all the other walls in the bathroom, you can fur the studs out rather easily with no implications. But if any of the shower walls are common (meaning they continue to extend out into another part of the bathroom), furring out the cement board exposes the side of it...making it stand proud of the rest of the walls in the room. That creates another problem of how to cover it. Yes, there are ways around this like notching the studs on these "common" walls for the pan and "double furring" the wall to the far side of it, but this can become quickly impractical to do on many remodeling applications.

Weep holes: This is a good topic. I've seen some Swanstone pans that have weep hole depressions molded into the shoulder of the pan...at the outer corners of the pan. The perimeter (or shoulder) of the pan is level, except for these depressed countours that make up the weep hole areas. Everything is caulked where the wall meets the pan, except for these short depressed sections. But let's get real here: In reality, a moisture barrier's job with this shower pan is to keep the moisture from getting at the studs and rotting them out. It's allows time for any moisture that gets in the wall to migrate though gravity and capillary action....taking it back out of the wall the way it came in...or down and to the sides where it has time to change to vapor and pass through the tiniest openings it finds. The moisture barrier's function is not to shed large amounts of water back into the pan. If that much water came through, it would show up in the adjoining walls and even onto the floor if you gave it enough time.

So bringing the moisture barrier down and over the pan's flange is a way to seal up the bottom of the wall to allow time for moisture to migrate and escape. If the integrity of the walls is compromised and a fair amount of moisture does get in the walls, you are on your way to permanent moisture damage that needs to be corrected. Weep holes would allow the moisture to escape...but would likely prevent you from noticing the moisture problem in the walls right away. That means you are more likely to suffer permanent damage to the framing/floor/etc. I'd rather have the moisture manifest itself in gooey or moldy caulk that is obvious to see so it can get corrected quicker. Therefore, I'm not in favor of weep holes in this situation.

So I say: Get your existing moisture barrier flapped out over the pan's flange and silicone the back of it. Keep the Durock you have installed as it (stopping above the flange). Then install your finished walls and rest easy.
__________________
Tonto Goldstein... but my friends call me Bubba

Help an awesome summer camp!
Tool Guy - Kg is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-23-2006, 07:17 AM   #9
NastyBurn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 242
Your time and advice is much appreciated and shall be followed.

Have a happy Turkey Day!!!
NastyBurn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-28-2006, 03:39 PM   #10
NastyBurn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 242
Ok... next question.

On a section of Durock around the whirlpool one of the studs must have been a little off, so the Durock is off very slightly. Maybe 1/8" of an inch (if that). Meaning that if you hold a four foot level up against the wall, to the far left, you can see a 1/8" gap.

Is this anything to lose sleep over or can I simply "build it up" a little when I do the inside corner that is there? (fiberglass tape, etc.).

Thanks,

Pete
NastyBurn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-28-2006, 04:03 PM   #11
northdenvertom
Registered User
 
northdenvertom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Littleton, CO
Posts: 59
Pete,

If you are talking about an inside corner where two CBUs meet, than that gap should be OK. You are supposed to leave an 1/8th inch to 1/4 inch between panels which includes the corner, so if your gap runs bewteen an 1/8th and 1/4 in you're fine. You need to tape the corners and use a modified thinset to cover them up. I'm useing Mapei Ultraflex 2 (Lowes). When two "factory" edges line up (the 5' section with the built in mesh) you do not need tape but you need the thinset. The tape is a special alkali resistant tape. I found it at my HD in the tile section, not the drywall section. Do not use drywall tape or drywall mud in the shower. That stuff is OK outside and where the CBU meets the drywall.

How's your project going? I've got my tile up in the shower and will post some pics soon.
northdenvertom is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-28-2006, 04:13 PM   #12
NastyBurn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 242
Hi,

It is a little hard to explain. Ok. On a wall, you have studs. All the studs should be lined up and even so that when you take a straight edge out and lean it up against the walls there are no gaps, etc.

In my case, one of the studs is off, so the level (straight edge) isn't exactly flush with the wall.

What I would like to know is if I can make up for this "gap" (valley, if you will) by lightly building up that area? And if so, with what? Otherwise I would need to pull that section of Durock down, and shim the stud out 1/8" of inch.

Hope that makes it clearer.

My project is moving along nicely until this little thing. The shower is good. There's another small issue there, but I'm going to post and solve one at at time.

I've narrowed down the tile I like and I'll add that reply too after this issue.

Pete
NastyBurn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-28-2006, 04:18 PM   #13
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 95,196
An eighth-inch out of plane should be manageable when you set your tiles, Pete. Might be easier to skim the low area with thinset and let it set up before you start tiling, though.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-28-2006, 04:21 PM   #14
NastyBurn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 242
CX,

You know how to tell a guy exactly what he hoped to hear don't you!

That is what I shall do.

Thank you!!!
NastyBurn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-28-2006, 04:24 PM   #15
NastyBurn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 242
Ok... now on to the tile question. I really like the simple look of this tile. A sort of a "subway tile" look is what I'm after. Timeless is key for me. I want to be able to look at this in 30 years and say... "Hey! That still looks good!"...

So my questions. What is the "official" size of subway tile? Is the one below close? How crappy is this tile for walls and around a whirlpool (quality wise)? What other brands make better... What is the *very best* thinset mortar to use for this tile? And any other hints ya got!

Thanks again,

Pete



United States Ceramic Tile
Bright, Pc , 3 x 6 In. , Snow White , Field, Wall Tile.

Model 072-36
SKU 467241

Flat 3 x 6 In. wall tile with non-glazed edges. Trims available in many colors. Ideal for residential use. Our products are ANSI CERTIFIED- American National Standards Institute.


* ANSI CERTIFIED- American National Standards Institute.
* Trims available
* Ideal for residential use
* Color: Snow White
NastyBurn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:50 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC