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Unread 08-07-2009, 08:58 PM   #391
SteveVB
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So by that rational the framers of the Constitution should not have been the ones to do it?
Nope... they should have been the ones to do it, but that the solutions they came up with were colored by their views- hence the ammendments even with their best of intentions.
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Unread 08-07-2009, 09:03 PM   #392
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See, we finally agree, they should have been the ones to do it.

I don't believe the amendments to be a product of "colored views" though, simply unforeseen circumstances. Like paying for a product for years then, when you actually need it, it is denied you. I guess that was unforeseen on my part, I'm just looking for an "amendment" for this particular circumstance. Unlike many, however, I don't claim to know what it is but I do know that it is not what is currently in place. That is BS.
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Unread 08-07-2009, 09:07 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Roger
That's correct CX, anyone willing to look at a problem with sufficient sense would be able to help solve it in some form. Just trying to point out that those not affected will not fully understand it. I never said anything about solving it - I said understand it.
Nope, gotta take issue with that part, too, Roger. It's frequently the people closest to a problem who understand it least. May better understand the impact of it upon them personally, but not necessarily better equipped to understand the problem.

Not to say that there will not be people directly affected who understand and can articulate the problem clearly, but being directly affected does not, of itself, necessarily mean that they will.

Nor does not being directly affected make others incapable of fully understanding or clearly articulating a particular problem.
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Unread 08-07-2009, 09:16 PM   #394
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Fair enough, CX. I guess I mean the personal impact of a particular situation. A doctor that has never had a broken arm can still fix it and know the pain level involved. However, he cannot, I don't believe, know exactly how it feels.
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Unread 08-07-2009, 09:34 PM   #395
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So by that rational the framers of the Constitution should not have been the ones to do it? They were personally affected by the British tyranny....
substitute "slavery" for the British and this line of thinking makes a lot more sense. The Framers certainly could have benefited from a little 3rd-party arbitration. As it was they had to accept an imperfect union and leave the problem to future generations. I'm pretty confident that had they had any hint that it would lead to 500K dead and the near destruction of that union they might have actually come to a different solution. Ah, the luxury of 20/20 hindsight.
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OK, say nothing changes and we end up with our current system.
and that would be the wrong answer, Joe. I can send you a long list of links to various conservative ideas. Any links to liberal ideas would boil down to the same thing - government control. The liberals are unabashed and quite open about their ultimate goal - Canadien-style single payer "universal" healthcare. Period.

There are several simple things we can do right now. Tort reform. We all know it's adding significant costs to the system. Obama has flat-out refused to even consider addressing it. Remove the state line barriers. There are over 1300 private providers of insurance and healthcare. How many options do you have in your state? Why should a state bureaucrat decide which plans you can buy? And why can't we pool together in my neighborhood for a group rate? There are lots of simple things we can do right now.

And here's the Safeway plan I've posted previously.
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Unread 08-07-2009, 09:56 PM   #396
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Roger,

I haven't taken anything personal. I guess I am too vehement in my passion for my Country and it's Constitution.

We have scoundrels in Washington that have created an atmosphere that is dividing us as a nation...purposefully.

What do we do? We look to the Constitution "as it stands - [not a living constitution]," the one you swore to defend, the one I and many others (including you I am most sure) so cherish in its most simplest form. That is all we have. Best of all though, it is all we need - that and a heap of prayers!

Uhoh! Here come the bots...gotta go!
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Unread 08-08-2009, 09:28 AM   #397
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Pooky asked:

1)How can the cost of health care be controlled without government intervention -- i.e. regulated and or mandated and provided.

2)Would anyone be OK with States mandating health care rather than the feds . . . John?

Dan Moit has covered number 1 more than once. Think of healthcare as a commodity, the prices of which are affected by the market.

The answer to 2. I don't want ANYONE mandating anything. When I mentioned that states and local governments should be handling things instead of the feds, I didn't envision mandates at any level.

As to the Framers being the ones to "do it," they were all delegates from the states. They were able to act as a body so they could get a plan together. They certainly didn't consider themselves part of any government; they were only trying to design one.

As to the need for amendments, the Framers realized they weren't perfect and that the document they rendered was not perfect. So they wrote in the provision for amending it. You can sense their insecurity in the Preamble. They didn't say "a perfect Union," they said "a MORE perfect Union."

Many people at the time felt the document fell short in protecting the rights of the people and states from being usurped by the new central government. Thomas Jefferson was one. He wrote to James Madison telling him he wasn't happy that there was no "bill of rights."

It turned out that the folks opposed to the Constitution as it stood would come around if it were amended. It's all about compromises. Without the Bill of Rights (the first ten amendments) the Constitution would not have been ratified, and everybody would have had to start from scratch.

I don't know how to solve the "healthcare" issue. I do know the worst way to go about it is to involve the feds.
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Unread 08-08-2009, 09:56 AM   #398
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For the people who don't want anyone mandating or regulating anything and how the market is just so great, how about this scenario that just happened recently:

The one in which that hedge fund or particular company who worked with I believe it was Bank Of America. Turns out the guy is due a $100,000,000 million dollar bonus after 3 years of making them if I recall 8 Billion dollars.

He leased oil cargo ships and instead of returning the oil to port he just kept them out at sea. I don't know how many ships were involved but it was quite a few to make them 8 Billion dollars.

There is speculation that this guy was a major factor for our gas going to $4.50 a gallon. What he did was perfectly legal and by rights he is due his bonus but even he himself wants to keep this quiet.


What if all the farmers say in Idaho or wherever farmers are located, decided they were going to hold grain and not ship it or even a percentage of them in order to drive up the costs (worse than the system we have now ie gov. subsidies ect)

I mean people would literally be giving the shirts of their back and selling their souls so they could eat.

Somebody has to keep an eye on this sort of stuff and if not the government then who? I mean I see the point and personally I wouldn't have a problem with the mafia in charge. At least they are not a bunch of hypocrites and i don't think they would run the country into the ground. Plus the mafia is part of the free market isn't it?
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Unread 08-08-2009, 10:07 AM   #399
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Ben, the free market abhors cartels and monopolies. Show me a monopoly today, and I will show you an organization that enjoys government protection from competitors.

Think about your Idaho example for a moment. What kind of people would endeavor to engage in such a scheme? What then is the likelihood that they would continue to honor their word to their co-conspirators under the temptation to cheat for even higher profit. In the absence of government coercion to prop them up, cartels always fail in time.

In your oil example, The Bank of America is part of a banking cartel that is propped up by the Federal Reserve.
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Unread 08-08-2009, 10:22 AM   #400
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Dan, I understand and point taken. Couldn't think of anyone giving me a better answer.

However, if we had a true free market, we are still an imperfect people. Man through the ages has always had some sort of greed come into play.

The bible even states that man is not fit to govern themselves in our state of imperfection. It states that man will continue to dominate man to his injury.

What makes you think that a free market is going to solve that?

I personally don't think and I get this from the Bible (such as the Lord's prayer that we pray for the kingdom to come) that no government run by people, whether it be your free market utopia or what, will fix mankind's problems where government is concerned.

In theory it may be better, maybe much better than what we have but I don't know if it has ever truly been done. I do know that it would eventually fail as well.

I'm counting on a Theocracy to fix the problem once and for all.
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Unread 08-08-2009, 10:26 AM   #401
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No Ben, the free market will not change the essence of human nature. Neither does government intervention. It's hardly fair to hold the free market to a standard of perfection when nothing else measures up.

I maintain that the free market - given the imperfections of man - is the best system under which to operate. It is a system of voluntary cooperation that civilized societies adopt in the absence of coercion.
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Unread 08-08-2009, 10:32 AM   #402
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Ben - OPEC has been trying to drive the price of oil/gas up for years. I don't see how one guy with a few tankers could have a major impact. All he was doing was holding out for a better price. In reality he could have lost his shirt if he'd bet wrong and oil prices had tanked.

like Dan said - if the farmers in Idaho decided to hold out you can bet that the farmers in Kansas would jump in to take the market away from them.

We do have anti-trust laws in place to deal with the rare case where someone gets a true monopoly and tries to manipulate the market. Frankly, I have doubts that we'll ever see the conditions again that prompted the passage of those laws in the first place.

What's particularly frustrating about these discussions is all the attacks on how the "free" market doesn't work. How would anyone know? Can you give me even one example of a market that the government doesn't touch in some manner?
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Unread 08-08-2009, 10:41 AM   #403
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Dan, I'm glad you understand my point. I would have to say you are onto something as to what you have in mind (true free market) given the current state of man, would probably fair better than what we have.

I don't know nearly as much as you do about a true free market but I think we both agree it wouldn't change human nature and eventually have its share of problems too.

Dan I'm not really holding the free market to a standard of perfection but rather stating until there is some sort of Godly intervention (Theocracy) all forms of government are doomed to fail no matter how good they may sound or look on paper.

I'm not trying to be a Bible thumper but the bible clearly states to not put your trust in Nobles or the son's of man.
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Unread 08-08-2009, 10:49 AM   #404
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Art,
this wasn't some guy with just a few tankers and risk was minimal. This guy doesn't lose. Did you happen to read the article about it and his bio?


Another thing, he made them 8 Billion on one hand but what did he cost them on the other. Ten times that? Prices of everything going up. How much money do you think they may have lost due to his actions. (mortgage defaults, loan defaults, ect. ect.) Those high gas prices put a huge strain on the economy. Nobody even knew this guy and his crew of 50 employees was even doing this till his bonus came into question.

There is some serious talk out there about the impact this guy had on our economy but nobody can put a number on it and all the top people are keeping their lips sealed. Now he has to see what is gonna happen with the pay czar.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
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Unread 08-08-2009, 11:07 AM   #405
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Ben - whatever he did he ultimately should be held accountable to the stockholders, not some pay czar. I also argue that it is the myriad of bad regulation/over-regulation that has set the stage for him and BofA to do what they did in the first place.

Remember, it was not free market that caused the housing bubble. Without the phoney safety net of Fannie/Freddie most of those bad loans would never have been made.

There are always unintended consequences of government meddling.
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