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Unread 01-18-2022, 09:23 PM   #181
arnav
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Thx CX for speedy response and for bearing with me. FYI, gmail now seems to send email notifications from this forum to spam . Hopefully it's only for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
As usual, I'm confused. It appears that you've already installed a first layer of subflooring with the plywood oriented in the correct direction. This is not the actual subfloor?
That is correct. It is not the actual subfloor. There are 3 structures in this bathroom:

Structure 1: The actual subfloor (which you have identified as such). The new sub-floor I have installed is at the same plane/level as the rest of the bathroom floor.

Structure 2: A raised platform from 2 x 6 for the bathtub area. This platform will have 2 layers of 3/4" BC ply on it. In lack of better terms I referred to this 2 ply layers as sub-floor. I can now see why this is confusing. How would you call it then? I guess I'll just call it the Tub's platform 2 ply layers/flooring.

Structure 3: I didn't want to just continue the tub's platform all the way to the wall and then build the shower at the same level as the tub. It makes for a really dangerous drop in height in a wet area (height of curb + height of platform). This is how the previous shower was built and it was really unsafe. Instead, I am planning to embed the shower within the 2 x 6 Platform. But, the shower drain pipe is in the way. Since there is no crawl space underneath, all plumbing are above the sub-floor and hence the need for a platform. Structure 3 is raising the floor level (above the actual subfloor) to the top of the shower drain pipe. Otherwise, I will need to create a mud bed 5 inches thick (4" to the top of the PVC pipe + 1" the required thickness of the pre-slope at the drain).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Why have you left out the subfloor across the entire length of the drain line?
So as per the above, this is not the real subfloor. It is an extra structure on top of the real subfloor. Ideally I would have used 2 x 4s instead of 2 x 3s and have the pipe fully below the floor of the structure. I can't do it or else the preslope and slope wouldn't fit within the height of the 2 x 6s. I don't want to build the tub's platform from 2 x 8s or 2 x 10s or else there will be an even bigger step down from the platform. Here is the math (a plan is attached as well):

Embedded shower build up:
Height to top of shower drain pipe: 4"
Height of pre-slope at the drain: 1"
Height of pre-slope at the opposite end of the shower: 4' x 0.25 pitch = 1"
Height of slope: 1.5"
Total: 4 + 1 +1 + 1.5 = 7.5"

Surrounding area (Tub's platform build up):
2 x 6 joists: 5.5"
2 ply floors: 1.5"
CBU: 0.5"
Total: 7.5" exactly what I need for the shower without making the platform higher than necessary...

I have marked the floor of the 3rd structure with "A" and "A" prime in the plan.

Hopefully the pics above make more sense now...
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Unread 01-18-2022, 09:53 PM   #182
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Not helping my confusion a whole lot, but........

The plywood that is directly under your shower, the layer on top of the 2x3 joists, or sleepers, or whatever we wanna call them, is your shower subfloor. Why? Because it is the subflooring upon which you plan to build your shower. Whatever you want to call the framing below the level of the 2x3s is a matter for another discussion. Please.

You are going to construct a shower on the area that we see in your photos that has a drain line angling across it among the 2x3 joists. You have subflooring on those joists that is separated such that it does not cover the narrow area containing the drain line, but covers the joist areas on either side.

My question was why you had done that, rather than cover the entire 2x3 joist area with the subflooring? I'm not seeing the logic there.

Second thing I do not understand is the construction of a traditional shower receptor rather than a direct bonded waterproofing type receptor. Perhaps I've not been following the thread closely enough, but with a wood framed subfloor outside the shower, I'm not seeing how you plan to waterproof the area outside the shower, which will get wet. With a direct bonded waterproofing membrane-type receptor, it would be a simple matter to continue the waterproofing out onto the rest of the floor. And would have provided more room for joists under the shower, which I do understand you don't really need for structure, but would have been easier than ripping 2x3 joists to accommodate two mud beds.

Bottom line at this point for me is, why the gap over the drain? And how do you plan to waterproof the floor outside the shower?

If you have decided that ain't none of that any of my bidness, I'll surely understand.

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Unread 01-18-2022, 11:00 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
If you have decided that ain't none of that any of my bidness, I'll surely understand.
Never. Until you are happy, I am not happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
The plywood that is directly under your shower, the layer on top of the 2x3 joists, or sleepers, or whatever we wanna call them, is your shower subfloor. Why? Because it is the subflooring upon which you plan to build your shower. Whatever you want to call the framing below the level of the 2x3s is a matter for another discussion. Please.
Ok, understood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
You are going to construct a shower on the area that we see in your photos that has a drain line angling across it among the 2x3 joists. You have subflooring on those joists that is separated such that it does not cover the narrow area containing the drain line, but covers the joist areas on either side.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
My question was why you had done that, rather than cover the entire 2x3 joist area with the subflooring? I'm not seeing the logic there.
Covering the entire flooring would have required raising the flooring above the pipe. With that extra height the shower area wouldn't fit within the height of the 2 x 6 platform (with a traditional pan liner construction). Please see the math in the previous post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Second thing I do not understand is the construction of a traditional shower receptor rather than a direct bonded waterproofing type receptor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
With a direct bonded waterproofing membrane-type receptor, it would be a simple matter to continue the waterproofing out onto the rest of the floor. And would have provided more room for joists under the shower, which I do understand you don't really need for structure, but would have been easier than ripping 2x3 joists to accommodate two mud beds.
100% agree a bonded waterproofing would be better. I fully recognize why. I really do. It makes perfect sense. But, I am much more comfortable with a traditional liner as this is what I have successfully used previously: https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin...113801&page=19

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Perhaps I've not been following the thread closely enough, but with a wood framed subfloor outside the shower, I'm not seeing how you plan to waterproof the area outside the shower, which will get wet.
This is really key for me to understand. Why would it get wet? The shower glass is inside the wet area and within the slope. Any water that drips from the glass drips into the pan. That is, the pan extends beyond the glass. The shower door / curb is to the south, not to the 2 x 6 area in the west. Here is a drawing Davy was kind to draw somewhere in this thread: https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin...1&postcount=68 Also, a finished example / project that Davy provided for inspiration also in this thread: https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin...5&postcount=52

1. So to ask differently, say I had unlimited man-power to schlep cement and sand up to the third floor. Filling the entire shower area's depth with 5" of mud would have been ok right? i.e. no 3rd structure, no 2x3 joists, just mud from subfloor until the height of the drain.
2. If so, does it really have to be the entire area of the shower? What if you extend the "trench" by the pipe by 1 foot on each side for example? then the gap in the middle is 2' of concrete. I am just trying to avoid having to set ~11 cubic feet of mud.
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Unread 01-19-2022, 09:32 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
This is really key for me to understand. Why would it get wet?
Well, aside from the water getting out with the people, which is somewhat controllable, I see no effective way to terminate that waterproof liner as you have it in your drawing. Will all the water under the glass go back into the shower? Maybe, but I wouldn't count on that floor, the CBU and plywood, not seeing some long-term moisture. Maybe it won't, but I'd not be too comfortable about it.

We do that, or usta do that, with showers recessed into SOG concrete, but even then I'd run the liner six inches or so out from the recessed area. Did any water ever get out there? I honestly can't say, cause if it did there was nothing but concrete and mortar for it to find. In your case, you're not likely to damage anything holding up the house, but you're put a hellofalot of work into that floor structure you have and I'd hate to see it damaged. We may be talking 20 years, but you still don't wanna hafta repair it. Ever.

That's my thinking on it. And it seems almost reckless, given that use of a direct bonded waterproofing membrane would have made your construction much easier, allowed you to extend your subfloor over the drain line, allowed for waterproofing outside the shower, and generally made things simpler and also easier. Schlepping much less deck mud and CBU, etc. But if that ship has sailed, so be it. I'll try not to nag further. What you're doing may work fine. I'll worry about the floor just outside the shower, but I'll get over it by and by.

1,2. Not sure what problem you're trying to fix there, Dan.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-19-2022, 11:04 AM   #185
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Thx CX. We will move on... I just wanted to point out a few more things.

I realized there was a "typo" in the plan. The liner would be between the ply and CBU, not above the CBU (since there is probably not a good way to attach the liner above the CBU and notch the CBU for the liner). The ply will be notched a little for the liner. That probably makes things worse in your perspective though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
We do that, or usta do that, with showers recessed into SOG concrete, but even then I'd run the liner six inches or so out from the recessed area
Yes, that will be the case since the glass is inside the liner and the liner is extended over the ply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
1,2. Not sure what problem you're trying to fix there, Dan.
That was in relation to the concern of having two separate non-contiguous subfloors. Having a 2" pipe embedded in 5" thick mud is fair game right?

I do redgard all my floors as SOP (just as an insurance policy against cracks). I know you hate this plan overall, but adding kerdi-band to overlap the CBU + redgard and the slope's mud is not going to hurt right?
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Unread 01-19-2022, 03:02 PM   #186
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I do not hate your plan, Dan. In fact, hating is something I do precious little of, as a rule.

I have respect for your execution of your plan, all of which appears to have been done in a workmanlike manner. I may have simplified it a bit, but, again, it was not my plan. Thus far I think you've done a rather good job of it and I would like for it to last 50 years or so, which is the only reason I've commented on any of it.

As far as the drain being encased in deck mud in that trench, I don't think you'll have any problem with that at all so long as it's well compacted and you have enough mortar over the top of the pipe. You're not looking at the same issues we might caution against were you to pour that much of a drain line in a concrete SOG, for example.

Not sure just how you plan to do the KerdiBanding and RedGarding, but the real issue is in not being able to bond anything effectively to the PVC liner material to create a continuous waterproofing layer. That's where I think the direct bonded waterproofing membrane system would have been the more useful method with your design. But that's:

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-19-2022, 04:45 PM   #187
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Thx CX. Its funny that I take pride in your feedback / compliments more than any feedback I get in my real professional work...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Not sure just how you plan to do the KerdiBanding and RedGarding, but the real issue is in not being able to bond anything effectively to the PVC liner material to create a continuous waterproofing layer.
It was going to be between the redgard and deck mud not the liner itself. Not to worry, when i get to that stage I'll post pics of what I am proposing.

With that behind us, two practical questions.

1. Any recommendations how to split the difference in the BC ply for the 3rd structure's flooring and the required 49.5" width? The ply has to be perpendicular to the joists and is obviously only 48" wide.
Make one piece 18" for example and the other 31.5"? Then for the second flooring layer alternate the 18" and 31.5" pieces? That would leave 13.5" of overlap between the two flooring layers. There is probably a rule or a best practice I am not aware of (e.g. make the smaller piece 25% or 30% of the overall length?).

2. The mud bed is fairly large (4' x 5.5)'. Even more, once you mix the mud, you only have 30 or so minutes to set it in place. I am sure it is better if you do the bed in one shot, but out of curiosity,
1. I am assuming you don't want to break the process into multiple days
2. Can you stop to at least mix new batches of mud or do you have to mix the entire volume you need at once?

Many thanks for the help
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Unread 01-19-2022, 07:48 PM   #188
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1. We are talking about the section on the left in the photos in post #177? Where we already see plywood? Or am I still hopelessly confused?

2(1). No, you don't wanna do that.

2(2). Do you have a Bucket Mortar Mixer?

Do you have a helper?

You can pre-mix all your dry ingedients beforehand. The moment you introduce water, though, the clock starts on the cement hydration. You usually can get more than 30 minutes, depending upon the ambient conditions, but it's good to pace yourself not to rely on that. With that ever so handy bucket mixer, you can have all your dry mortar staged in buckets outside the work area, ready for water to be added from a pre-measured container. Takes less than 2 minutes of mixing to have a new bucket ready to pour in the shower and start placing, packing, and shaping. You can start in a far corner, having already marked your level line, or whatever line you need, on the walls, and just keep mixing and placing. You'll be well rested from having carried all those buckets up all those stairs, because once you start adding water you want to continue until you're finished. You can do a shower that size alone if you plan well and work steadily. You needn't hurry, you just need to work steadily. I haven't done one for some years, but I was over 70 the last time I did one that size.

If you don't have the bucket mixer, I strongly recommend a helper to do the mixing. Nice to have a helper even with the mixer, but you can get by without one.

You certainly can fill that plumbing channel beforehand if you want, and it'll be a little tedious and pre-filling will be a good idea.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-19-2022, 08:55 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
1. We are talking about the section on the left in the photos in post #177? Where we already see plywood?
Not 177, I already made the executive decision on that one...
I was referring to the ply in 178: https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin...&postcount=178
you'll notice how one sheet of ply is just shy of the required width for the area. Just thinking where to rip the piece to make room for another piece next to it. Make one 18" or so and the other 31.5 or so? Wanted to ask before I shorten it too much and ruin the full sheet's width. Who is the darn architect that designed this? Kidding, the width of the shower is like that on purpose so that the window is centered between the wall and the shower's glass enclosure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Do you have a Bucket Mortar Mixer?
Thanks for the link. I have a mini version of it https://www.homedepot.com/p/QEP-16-i...1210/311174552
I also have a mortar hoe, a large concrete mixing tub, and whole lot of empty buckets (worn out of course for good posture).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
You certainly can fill that plumbing channel beforehand if you want, and it'll be a little tedious and pre-filling will be a good idea.
Yes, that's the plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
you'll be well rested from having carried all those buckets up all those stairs
haha, all the carrying will be well in advance with plenty of time to recover (or not). With the copper pipes all done I have multiple working valves in the bathroom so at least I only need to bring up the dry materials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
I haven't done one for some years, but I was over 70 the last time I did one that size
I don't know how you guys do it, at this point I am merely hoping to make it to 70...

Thanks for all the tips. Will do. It is those tips that make all the difference..
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Unread 01-19-2022, 09:33 PM   #190
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You are planning to place deck mud over everything plywood we see in the photos in post 178, yes?
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Unread 01-20-2022, 01:00 AM   #191
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Yes, that is the shower area. The width of a sheet of ply is 1.25" short of the required width of the flooring area so I am assuming I should use two sheets of ply instead of the single one you see in the pic. You can see the gap where the ply meets the copper pipes.
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Unread 01-20-2022, 09:56 AM   #192
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I would install the panels you have if you have sufficient joist overlap for fastening, Dan. Roofing felt and expanded metal lath over your plywood, pressed down into those gaps, deck mud packed well at the edges, and shaped for your shower floor. I wouldn't find any fault with that approach.

Let's see if anyone else does, eh?
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Unread 01-20-2022, 10:35 AM   #193
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Here is another pic just to double check and make sure we are not miscommunicating.
Are we saying it is ok to have the first shower ply layer only be supported by 1/2" of the ledger board / joist that is attached to the wall on the right? I thought i will need to rip the current ply sheet that you see on the blue line so that the floor can span from the 2 x 6 all the way to wall (minus the customary 1/4" gap). No issues either way. Just trying to do the right thing.

Thx for the help
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Unread 01-20-2022, 10:40 AM   #194
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I'd slide it over such that there is a gap on both sides and enough overlap on the joist on each side for fastening. If you can't get that, you can certainly rip more plywood to make a better fit, but if you can get sufficient fastening, I wouldn't bother. I'd want some construction adhesive on the joist tops, too.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-20-2022, 10:41 AM   #195
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1/2" isn't much, especially to be able to drive fasteners into it.

Can you glue and screw some cleats to the side of that ledger, Dan?
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