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Unread 09-01-2003, 04:40 PM   #31
Davy
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Hi Susie, I think it's been said but when the pressure builds it will break at the weakest point. In your case it was between the thinset and the tile. Sometimes it will break between the thinset and the slab, leaving the thinset on the tile.

This doesn't happen very often and I don't fully understand it, that's why I have questions myself.

You can tap on the tiles next to the tented ones, sometimes some of these will be loose too.
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Unread 09-01-2003, 11:44 PM   #32
DaveinDallas
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Davy - you bring up a good point. After about 6 of my tiles "tented" and broke free from the slab, I tapped on surrounding tiles and some had a "hollow" sound which were solid before. After a few weeks, the grout started breaking loose around more tile. My house was built in 1985 near downtown in the Bryan Place subdivision. Almost everyone here had foundation problems. The build quality is extreemly poor as I've found out by tearing into walls as I remodel.
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Unread 09-02-2003, 10:56 AM   #33
Dave Gobis
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The industry recommendation is to leave a 1/4" joint at all room perimeters. If you are covering a large area with tile you may need to make the joint wider.

Porcelain tile has an average coefficient of linear expansion of 0.00000413” per degree Fahrenheit. As an example, porcelain tile covering 40 ft. that is exposed to a change in surface temperature of 50*Fahrenheit has the potential to expand approximately 1/16 to 3/32". Bonding material reduces actual expansion. Better setting material provides greater bond strength. Ranges are from 150 to 600 PSI Shear Strength (depending on materials) for cement based products. By the way, concrete has a different growth rate, 0.0000055 based on a .5 water ratio. Moisture growth is possible but a very long term and permanent condition unlike temperature variation which occurs constantly.
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Unread 09-02-2003, 04:25 PM   #34
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So Dave, I think you're saying then that concrete will contract at a slightly faster rate than porcelain tiles with a severe temperature drop. I think you're also saying that this would noraally be handled by the setting material if the setting material was of good quality and installed correctly?

Folks, I'm moving this thread to the deep end because of it's "deepness." Susie, everyone is welcome there.
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Unread 09-03-2003, 06:39 AM   #35
SusieQ
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Exploding Tiles

So lets bottom line this.......if the installer uses quality setting materials and does quality installation with the proper expansion joints on the concrete slab the tiles should not tent or explode?

Then how do you get installers to put the expansive joints in when everyone I talked to down in FL. does not use them?

I guess the answer is have something else installed??????
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Unread 09-03-2003, 08:02 AM   #36
Dave Gobis
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Suise, you are absolutley correct, it doesn't just "happen". The best one I ever saw was in WI were there were actually shards in the ceiling. Guess the fact they don't use expansion/movement joint is the reason people are always calling about their exploding or tenting floors. I get one or two calls a week on this type of failure, probably 30 to 40 % of them from Florida. In the Northern states this is a spring or fall call, Southern it goes on year around.The other big failure in FL is using scribing felt for crack suppresion which the installer has been doing "for 20 years and never had a problem". Now somebody tell me that grout against drywall can't create that kinda pressure so we can argue !
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Unread 09-03-2003, 09:02 AM   #37
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I find myself wondering if those people who have been using certain procedures for 20 years without changing with the times have just never had anyone track them down to let them KNOW there had been a problem.

Just curious ... when you get these calls about tenting tiles, are you able to get in touch with the original installer to let him know what happened and why it happened?

We're not fortunate enough here to have guys like the ones on this forum doing the tile work in our sub-division. I'm not sure the builder could even identify the person who actually installed my tile if I were to experience what Susie Q has experienced.

Under these circumstances, at least within the first year, I believe that the builder would have their current 'tile' people handle it ... but if it didn't occur until year 5 or 6 they probably wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Of course, they would just reinstall the affected tiles and STILL not go back and create expansion joints.

Cathy
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Unread 09-03-2003, 09:30 AM   #38
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Well, maybe, just maybe, they will find out what a latent defect is. Depending on the tort law of the state, the clock could start ticking then. It is rare, but it happens. Lawyers purchase old installation documents for a specific year on a regular basis.
As time goes on the typical "20 years" seems to grow to 30. I don't buy the statement because the reality is when the job is done, you move on and unless the account is a regular customer, the customer and installer is long forgotten. I do have a friend who was put into Chapter 7 for a job he did with no insurance after 18 years had passed. It was a regular account that got him. I have had my share of repairs for established accounts over the years as well but can only remember a single call on a call-in or walk-in customer. That was for a caulk joint on a 7 year old backsplash! Yeah, we fixed it.
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Unread 09-03-2003, 05:28 PM   #39
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Okay, I don't believe grout against drywall can cause that sort of problem.

Sue sent pictures. I'll post them one at a time. Here we go.
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Unread 09-03-2003, 05:28 PM   #40
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numero dos.
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Unread 09-03-2003, 05:29 PM   #41
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tres.
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Unread 09-03-2003, 05:30 PM   #42
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Unread 09-03-2003, 05:30 PM   #43
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Unread 09-03-2003, 05:33 PM   #44
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The delaminations I've seen around here usually have the thin set adhering to the tiles and peeling off the slab. Somebody did a good job of cleaning the slab in this case and then allowed the thin set to skin over. Probably cheap thin set, too. That's half of it.
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Unread 09-04-2003, 06:23 AM   #45
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That coverage is pretty weak. Depending on the thinset used I would guess the force required to shear that floor to be 100 to 300 pounds per square inch. The amount of kiln release on the back of those tiles would cause a problem with the least amount of stress applied. How much it would lower the value is hard to say, but it would

My favorite demo for demonstrating the compressive force of drywall is first to stick a pencil in the wall, no problem right? Goes right in. Now I will go get the forklift, which weighs 9700#, pick up two pallets of backerboard for another 4500# and drive over a sheet of drywall (actually, I usually use Denshield). No damage to the drywall. The hard rubber tires spread out the 14,000# load to the point where no damage occurs. There is approximately 28 square inches of surface contact on the tires of the forklift. That equals about 500 pounds per square inch. Shear strength of basic latex mortars, about 200 pounds per square inch. Shear strength of premium mortars, about 500-600 pounds per square inch. The point load of the pencil using .030 area of surface contact would be roughly 10,000 pounds per square inch using a 300# force. Uniform load applied to the sides of a tile installation, even when butted to drywall, certainly has the force required to shear the tile floor.

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