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Unread 07-13-2022, 06:02 PM   #1
Burgher
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Shoehorn curbless into 40sqft 1950's bathroom

Hi, just found this forum and it seems like a wealth of information but I couldn't find a thread that addressed my question.

I want to do a kerdi curbless with linear drain in this small space. The attached picture illustrates the shower\toilet\vanity area which is 6.5 feet wide by 5 foot deep. I'm standing in the 3' x 3' area just inside the door.

The plan is for a 56" linear drain at the base of the wall on the left and slope the whole floor towards that using deck mud

If I sister the joists and fill the stud bays I have 1.5" of depth at the walls, no room for the drain after slope (6x.25"=1.5) So I'm going to have to take some off the joists, my question is do I have to take some off all of the joists or can I just bring the left 3 down an additional inch? and leave the right bays at 1.5"?
Can a mortar bed make the transition over the 'step' this would create. The mortar would be and inch thick on the thin side of the transition and slope up to 1.5" over the next 2 feet..

Is my idea workable or way off base?

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Unread 07-14-2022, 07:35 AM   #2
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Welcome, Steve,

Before diving into this too deeply I'd like to see a floor plan drawing of the space with dimensions, including that of the proposed shower foot print. Do you intend to construct this bathroom to meet any applicable building codes? Have you run the joist deflection calculation (see our "Deflecto" tool above in the dark blue bar)? By "slope the whole floor" do you mean just that of the shower, or then entire bathroom floor?
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Unread 07-14-2022, 07:43 AM   #3
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Welcome, Steve.

What Dan asked. 'Specially about the code compliance.

Ripping the depth of floor joists is generally a bad idea unless additional support can be installed under the ripped joists or said joists can be reinforced with suitably sized and supported new joists. We'd need to know more about your structure and what's below it to make any recommendations about that.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 07-14-2022, 07:16 PM   #4
Burgher
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Thanks for the welcomes and replies

Unfortunately I don't have a sketch in the computer, not sure what program I would use for that. The room is a 78"x60" rectangle with a 38"x38" square area where the door opens, like this shape
xxxxxx
xxxxxx
xxxxxx
..xxx..
..xxx..

The shower area is on the left and the toilet\vanity on the right. The plan is to have the pre slope highpoint at the doorway square, then sloping from right to left in the rectangle area to the linear drain. The pan can be 1.25" in the doorway (before tile and ditra heat, hallway floor is 1.75") Hence why I need to recess some of the shower area for the depth of the drain and to keep the slope 1\4 per ft. (do I need to have under the toilet and vanity 1\4 per foot? is that amount of slope going to be noticeable when walked on? Will I run into any problems with the toilet plumbing because of the slope)

I appreciate the concerns regarding the structure, especially since this is a no permit job, I plan do die here but certainly don't want the house to kill me lol.

I think it will be ok because, as the picture shows, the house was built with sistered joists on either side of the chimney (that's why it looks like one is missing in the pic) the joists I'll be notching an inch out of are supported by an interior wall that I'll add a couple studs to.

Again, I appreciate the warm welcome
Thanks
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Unread 07-14-2022, 07:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan, Post #2
Do you intend to construct this bathroom to meet any applicable building codes?
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Unread 07-14-2022, 08:50 PM   #6
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Not pulling a permit if that's what you mean. I would like it to be as strong as it was when it was built, which I think it will be with the added interior wall mid span.
My question was, is it ok to pack a pre slope over a transition? like this diagram where the dots are mortar and the x's are wood subfloor. I'm guessing just fold\bend the paper and lath over it and pack away

....................
..........xxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx

(double thick dots are 2" deep to 1" on top sloped out to 1.5 at the wall)
watched a lot of videos and have yet to see someone do it and I was wondering why

thanks again
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Unread 07-15-2022, 07:08 AM   #7
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Whether to permit the work is entirely up to you, Steve. What we are asking is whether you intend your work to meet applicable building codes. Failure to get permits and inspections for work in a code compliance jurisdiction can be costly sometimes in the longer term, but doing remodeling that will not meet local code can end up being even more expensive.

Not sure I understand your drawing or your question. It's very difficult to get enough vertical room in a wood framed floor to build a traditional shower that's curbless. While having a pre-slope under a 40mil waterproof liner does afford some protection from cracking at elevation changes in the framing (which I think you might be describing), it's not a guarantee, depending upon circumstances.

But actually being able to waterproof the receptor and the floor outside a curbless shower in a wood framed floor is the more difficult part. Do you have a plan for that?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 07-17-2022, 10:04 AM   #8
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Like the others have said, you can't just cut into your floor joists. You could severely damage your home.

What you want to do isn't really possible unless you recess the shower area. With the information you've provided, it's impossible to know whether that's feasible.

I would encourage you to look into a curbless Schluter pan with a center drain that doesn't require compromising the integrity of your home.
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Unread 07-18-2022, 01:37 PM   #9
Burgher
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Well, I definitely don't want to damage my house. I was under the impression that notching the joists, to some degree, was acceptable. I've watched videos from Sal DiBlasi, Tile Coach and I think StarrTile, where they've done this. TileCoach had this to say

"As a general rule, no notching of joist can take place in the middle 1/3 of the span of the joist. On the outside 1/3 of the span, notches may be cut into the joists. There are also limitations to the size of the notch you can cut. Only 1/6 of the height of the joist may be removed. That means for a 2x8, only 1-3/8" may be removed"

The Joists I'm thinking of notching 1" are the 3 on the left (2 of which are sistered) They were 12 foot spans when built but have had an interior wall added underneath aprox in the middle. So I'm not too worried about structural integrity (I'll add a couple studs to that interior wall for good measure)

My original question was can a mud pan make a vertical transition if it's deep enough, in my case going from 2" up to 1" then on to 1.5" at the wall. I found a picture that seems to answer my question from finehomebuilding.com and here it is in case anyone else stumbles upon this thread.

Thanks again folks
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Unread 07-18-2022, 01:48 PM   #10
jadnashua
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A joist is sort of like an I-beam...the top and bottom are in either compression or tension. The middle is holding the top and bottom in place. Cutting a hole in it, as long as it's not close to a bearing point, within limits, can be done without compromising the strength, but compromising the top or bottom of the joist makes it more the equivalent of the minimum thickness.
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Unread 07-18-2022, 02:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve, quoting somebody else
Only 1/6 of the height of the joist may be removed.
That's half the description of notching limits, Steve. The other half is that the notch shall not be longer than 1/3rd the depth of the member. You go beyond that and you're ripping, rather than notching.

And once you have ripped a graded member, you no longer have a graded member at all. While it's possible that the grade might be the same for the smaller member, it's far more likely that it will be of lower grade after the rip.

Not to say it can't be done successfully under the right circumstances, just saying it's very unlikely you have the right circumstances without some additional framing.

If that photo is of a waterproofed shower, which it appears to me to be, please pay no attention to it at all. If he's just preparing for a continuous deck mud floor, I'd still need to know more about it to guess whether that step is a guaranteed tile surface crack location or not.

And I'm still not sure just where your "step" will be, nor how critical the location will be to your overall plan. I know it's clear in your thinking, but I'm afraid it's not clear at all in mine.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Last edited by cx; 07-18-2022 at 02:49 PM.
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