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-   Professionals' Hangout (https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Off topic from xrayx (https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=107508)

XrayX 05-26-2013 08:44 PM

Off topic from xrayx
I feel an obligation 2 help someone asking 4 advice with my knowledge. Even if its against the grain. Over the years I found many things the manufactures recommend are not the best. Especially 4a diy'er. If that was the case they could just read the instructions and not bother with a forum. And how informative would it be if everyone was a lemming n just recited the manufacturers directions. Anybody has the right 2 bash what I say but I also have the right 2 say it. I just think my advice would help someone that is not a pro n hopefully make sum (pros) think twice about their methods.

Tool Guy - Kg 05-26-2013 08:58 PM

Thank you for your enthusiasm for wanting to help. :)

You are most certainly entitled to your opinion. And you can discuss any method that may/may not conform to industry standards/manufacturer's instructions you like in the Pro's Hangout as often as you like in any manner you see fit (so long as you're civil to your fellow forum members).

But on this forum, specifically the Tile Forum/Advice Board where DIY'ers are learning in, you are not welcome to post advice that contradicts manufacturer's instructions. Both industry standards and manufacturer's instructions aren't based on a few hundred experiences of individual installers, they are base on literally tens of thousands of installs. So, we're very glad you've had good experiences going against the published standards, but we do not promote them in the Tile Forum/Advice Board.


muskymike 05-26-2013 09:15 PM

Hi Ray, there is no going against the grain in the Advice Forum. Please refrain from giving advice that is not industry standards.

XrayX 05-26-2013 09:24 PM

Is that a threat? I go against the grain all my life. If people never question the standard people never make progress. Going against the grain is how we got to this point.

jgleason 05-26-2013 09:30 PM

Ray - No threat. There are rules on this forum. Please follow them. If you don't like the rules as stated by several of the moderators to you already then you are free to start a forum of your own and run it any way you like.

If you want to discuss this further then pm any of the moderators to have a private discussion. Any further disruption in the DIY area of this forum will not be tolerated.

XrayX 05-26-2013 09:53 PM

So the rules are just agree with what a couple people say?
Or just recite sum handbook. Give me a brake, how many project come with a hand book? Is this about mastics and glass or stone mosaic.? Have u ever tried to remove any of the above from said mastic on drywall.? The weakest point will be the drywall mud doesn't mater if u use epoxy. I just wish some one would make their case rather than tell me to shut up. How is mortar better than mastic on taped drywall?

jgleason 05-26-2013 09:57 PM

Ray -

Please read the rules - http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=14730

and this one - http://www.johnbridge.com/about/forum-rules/

The DIY forum is not the place to go against the grain. Send a private message to a moderator if you want to discuss this further. No more posts to this thread though about how you don't like the rules. Final warning. Thanks for your cooperation.

madronatile 05-27-2013 08:22 AM

I've found that the weakest point is the bond between the outer paper face and inner paper right before it turns to gyp core.

melissadurante 05-27-2013 08:31 AM

You know, I have to intervene here. I originally installed my kitchen glass mosaic tile backsplash in 2008 using Omni-grip...which is going against the grain, here.
When the boyfriend and I ripped out the backsplash it was stuck like super glue. In fact...I had to replace all the sheetrock that came off with it and skim coat in many areas. In addition, the omnigrip adhesive was bright white.

I am doing another mosaic backsplash and will be using the Omni-grip again.

melissadurante 05-27-2013 08:33 AM

Also, I'd like to add....I am an electrician by trade for the past 18 years. The first thing they taught me back in my apprentice days was to throw away the instructions!!! lol

jgleason 05-27-2013 08:55 AM

I moved all of this discussion to its own thread so as not to burden the original thread with unrelated discussion.

I'm glad that throwing out the instructions works so well for you. It doesn't change the fact that advice that is given in the shallow end (the Tile Forum/Advice Board) is expected to conform to industry standard methods and a reliance on following manufacturer's guidelines for installation and use of their product.

Knock yourselves out here about how great something works for you anecdotally but keep it out of the shallow end.


Lazarus 05-27-2013 09:16 AM

Melissa~In point-of-fact, mastic is certainly approved for backsplashes and Omni-Grip works quite well there. We have never indicated otherwise.

Although a backsplash may get a little wet from time to time, it is not considered a "wet" area...like a shower.

Mastic is an organic adhesive and will tend to re-emulsify in the regular presence of water. While it "has" been used on shower walls in the past, sometimes successfully, it isn't recommended. In years past, mastic was mineral-based and held up better to water exposure. This is no longer the case with current formulations.

Davy 05-27-2013 09:23 AM

The mastics we have today are better than ever and will probably work well under some glass tiles. But, I've installed 1/2 inch thick transparent glass tiles that were 12x12's. I don't think I want mastic behind those, it may never dry out and no telling what color the mastic will turn. It's easier and the best advice to have them look at what the manufacturer recommends. You might get away with recommending mastic to someone that have small glass tiles but then next week another reader thinks mastic is fine for all glass tiles.

ceramictec 05-27-2013 09:28 AM

Man, some people just don't get it :lol2:

XrayX 05-27-2013 09:33 AM

Hard to have full perspective when this was only part of another thread. That got moved. A lot of the conversation is not on this tread.

Tesara 05-27-2013 09:36 AM

There are many conflicting standards by the industry and not all instructions are of in sync to devise a single linear view of the standards... And every couple of years, the standards change... Examples would be fabric versus liquid waterproof versus liners, etc...

On this forum I recall one manufacturer which was instructing a soupy thinset... Mastics are not disapproved for usage in areas of kitchen and bath when not getting soaked with water and the instructions indicate that so how can their usage be substandard...

As far as I am concerned instructions are fine but they can not enforce integration of different products in all situations because there is no single way of doing it... That's when expert opinion is good because they can be more specific as what usage would be a disaster even when instructions are not violated....

Sometime violation of expert opinion would be hacking it but not necessarily substandard too.... because the code is not getting violated... because standards are not conforming to each other... and time is changing the standards... There are not many plywood constructed houses where I live and they engineered wood flooring and they lay tiles on and these houses which are brand new houses according to some standard... so it is confusing..

gueuzeman 05-27-2013 09:37 AM

Ray- it's the rules, and it's not your sandbox. You also need to type in words, it's as bad as these others that type in "Texan."

Melissa. don't houses burn down with out of spec electrical installs?

Omnigrip- both indusrty standard AND manufacturer approved for use on shower walls. Just sayin', it is true. Read the spec sheet.

Of course, I am a no talent hack that doesn't mud walls or use panliners, one of the reasons I don't give advice in the shallow end.


XrayX 05-27-2013 09:49 AM

Don't use mastics or your house will burn down. :oyeah:

Tool Guy - Kg 05-27-2013 10:21 AM

There you go, Ray. Here in the Pro's Hangout, that kind of comment will be taken in jest. In the shallow end with DIY'ers who are earnestly trying to sift through all the murky information they're given by every Tom, Dick, and Harry, it's not so welcome.

I'm not much of a fan of mastic. But Gueuze is absolutely right. Type 1 mastic is industry and manufacturer approved for use in showers, provided you follow their exceptions that the exceptions of the other materials' manufacturer's exceptions.

But what is being objected to, what caused this thread in the first place, is Ray's advice to use mastic on glass and stone tiles to the DIY crowd.


Higher Standard Tile 05-27-2013 10:22 AM

Mastic is fine for small ceramic wall tile on dry interior walls and is easy to use.

Never seen any glass tile manufacturer that has mastic listed as an approved adhesive for their products.

Last time I checked a 3.5 gallon of Omnigrip is almost $60.
Normal mastic is just under $40.

But I can also buy a 50lb bag of Laticrete 4XLT for under $30 a bag that is nonsag and has much higher performance than mastic and it cost much less.

Just add water.:)

evan1968 05-27-2013 10:48 AM

Mastic has its place in our world. Albeit a small place. When I see or hear of a "pro" using it outside that small place, the words "hack" and "lazy" come to mind.
We all take shortcuts in the tile world. They are calculated and thought out before hand to determine if they are detrimental to the overall outcome in the long and short term.
Taking shortcuts because they save time and work without looking at the long term is not what pros in the business do.
My 2 cents....

K_Tile 05-27-2013 12:32 PM

Following directions are fine it you are controlling every aspect of a job. You have to understand the principles of why things are done.

In a commercial world you can not be static in a dynamic environment. Waiting for lab tested conditions will cause you to be sitting at home.

Rules are always "bent" to get to the same outcome. You have to trust your gut, reputation and bank acct to play your own way.

XrayX 05-27-2013 04:50 PM

Standards are good. But this tread was just about using mastic on a stone and glass mosaic kitchen backsplash. Nothing more. And I stand behind it. But that is really the only place I would use mastic. Or some place similar. If people have doubt take a piece and stick it to sum drywall with both (mastic and thinset)let it set then try to remove it and let's see what is the point of failure. Just not a piece on the wall scrap. :yo:

XrayX 05-27-2013 04:52 PM

1 Attachment(s)

XrayX 05-27-2013 04:53 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Also mastic

XrayX 05-27-2013 04:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
And yes again mastic

XrayX 05-27-2013 04:58 PM

But I do only use custom acryl-pro mastic because it stays white.

Lazarus 05-27-2013 05:08 PM

Sure....a backsplash, no problem. It only gets wierd when it's for a shower wall or floor....

XrayX 05-27-2013 05:15 PM

Never use mastic in a shower! Dry!!!! Areas only !!!!!

XrayX 05-27-2013 05:18 PM

Also walls only, never floor.

Kilauea 05-27-2013 05:25 PM

You do very nice work,sir.Thanks for sharing.

Dont let these guys beat u up too much.Its almost like a hazing.You'll do great here:usflag:

XrayX 05-27-2013 05:40 PM

Thanks, I get the some of the criticism. But I know what works and was just trying to make someone's life easier. Also am passionate about my work so when someone try's to belittle what I say it doesn't sit we'll with me. I understand I might be new to this forum but not new to the industry.

HS345 05-27-2013 06:43 PM


Originally Posted by Ray
Thanks, I get the some of the criticism. But I know what works and was just trying to make someone's life easier. Also am passionate about my work so when someone try's to belittle what I say it doesn't sit we'll with me. I understand I might be new to this forum but not new to the industry.

That's a two way street bro. ;) Welcome aboard.

L.T. knows what he's talking about. Right TT....er....LT? :D

Chad Deiter Company 05-27-2013 07:05 PM

Mastic usually yellows over time that's why it's not listed on glass manufactures websites.

XrayX 05-27-2013 07:08 PM

Not all mastics yellow. But yes most do.and I wouldn't use one that dose.

gueuzeman 05-27-2013 07:16 PM

[QUOTEHS somethingdy something]L.T. knows what he's talking about. Right TT....er....LT? [/quote]

Moderator - edited to remove offensive personal remark


True story.


Chad Deiter Company 05-27-2013 07:17 PM

I have only ever used the Customs one I'm not sure how many are out there.

XrayX 05-27-2013 07:38 PM

I never seen it yellow.

XrayX 05-27-2013 07:39 PM

Acryl pro that is.

Chad Deiter Company 05-27-2013 07:41 PM

I have before. I don't use much mastic anymore there are better non-sag thin sets out for better price.

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