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-   -   Toilet Closet Flange problem (https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=87830)

Army1 02-11-2010 09:08 PM

pre-slope mortar bed problems
 
During the bathtub removal phase, I was unable to relocate drain from near the end wall (9 ") to a more central spot. As a result, the new drain base is not flushed with the concrete floor and it's off about 1/4 " on one side. Should i spread the mud evenly around the perimeter and compensate for the error by a change in slope (> 1/4 " per foot in some areas)? The area is 30X60. I don't want my final mortar bed to be affected by this error. Thanks

Brian in San Diego 02-11-2010 09:22 PM

Al,

Welcome to the forums! I think I would need a pitcher or a little more information as to what you are trying to do. Not sure what you mean by this "As a result, the new drain base is not flushed with the concrete floor and it's off about 1/4 " on one side." What kind of drain are you talking about? The mud bed should have a 1/4" per foot fall from the furthest point from the center of the drain. The fall at the 9" side will be much greater. If you don't build you mud bed that way then the bottom row of tile won't be uniform and I believe it'll be quite noticeable.

Brian

Davy 02-12-2010 05:34 AM

Al, if the bottom section of the drain is tilted out of level, you can cut some of the threads off of the top grate so it just sits on the bottom flange without screwing in at all. That way it can be placed level then mud packed around it to hold it in place.

Army1 02-12-2010 03:01 PM

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That is what i was thinking. The edge height of the sloping mortar bed does not have to be even all the way around my frame box as long as i maintain a minimum of 1/4"/ft slope towards the base of the drain. Because of the location of the drain, the thickness of the sloping mortar bed will vary from 1/2" to 1-3/4". Once i install the membrane and pour the final mud floor, then i have to make sure the edge height is correct all the way around. Does this sound right? See attached file

Davy 02-12-2010 06:37 PM

The preslope isn't critical, as long as it has some pitch, 1/4 inch per ft is recommended but it can be less where the drain is close to the wall. The top mudbed is critical and it's ideal to have the perimeter level all the way around. I have tiled situations like you have and made the top mud bed out of level at the perimeter so it's not so steep at the drain end. You just have to cut the bottom row of wall tiles to fit the slope.

Army1 03-17-2010 03:12 PM

Move a toilet...need opinion
 
1 Attachment(s)
First i want to say Thank You for all the help. This site is AWESOME.

My wife and i are remodeling our bathroom and we have a disagreement about relocating the toilet. As you can see from the attachment the center of the toilet drain is about 12 inches from the edge of the unfinished curb. We have enough room to move the toilet drain another 4-6 inches away from the curb but she is afraid of the damage that it will cause to the concrete slab ( stress cracks, etc). Would you move the drain? I don't have any of the tools for this type of a job. Is this very complicated or should I hire a professional to do it.? If so, approximately what would that cost. I have read the other threads on this subject but i would like another opinion. Thanks for everything

dhagin 03-17-2010 03:36 PM

What those other threads said, as long as they suggested moving or relocating the toilet. :)

Price would depend on where you are, what kind of pipe, condition of pipe, slab-on-grade or post-tensioned, etc... can you fill in any blanks for us? Any other possible locations available? or orientations, like moving it and turning 45 or 90 degrees?

Army1 03-17-2010 03:51 PM

Thanks for the reply. It's on a concrete slab and it would move at most 4-6 inches along the same horizontal plane maintaining the same distance from the finished drywall. The drain is PVC. The closet ring is cracked on one edge and i will have to either replace it or fix it. We will be adding ceramic tiles to the bathroom floor. We live in Orlando, Florida.

JC 03-17-2010 06:07 PM

You can rent a water concrete saw that will cut right into to the floor, tell the rental place what your doing they will give you the right saw.it will make a big puddle though but you wont have much dust.that and a sledge hammer should do it.

Got to know where you drain is in relation to the flange to keep from damaging it too much.

After you replace the plastic drain, back fill with a bag of concrete

Houston Remodeler 03-17-2010 06:55 PM

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In about 20 minutes you can take out the concrete you need with one of these. Keep on the lookout for rebar. You'll need something to cut it if its in your way. Use a shop vac to get the chipped concrete out of you way while hammering out the hole.

bbcamp 03-18-2010 04:34 AM

I agree, Al. The PVC pipe makes this a fairly easy DIY job.

Army1 03-18-2010 10:00 AM

Thanks everyone for all the help. I'll start the project tomorrow. I plan on using a skill saw with a 7" cement cutting wheel and a spray water bottle to minimize the dust. Once I make all the necessary cuts i'll use a Bosh electric hammer that i was able to borrow from a friend. Once I get to the PVC drain pipes I should be able to see what i need to replace. Thanks

Army1 03-21-2010 11:57 AM

Move a toilet...need opinion - Part #2
 
1 Attachment(s)
Well i finally broke the concrete slab in the bathroom and now i have access to the drain pipe. What i'm trying to do is move the toilet drain, about 4-6 inches, and stay within the same plane of the current toilet drain location (movement will be towards the bottom of the picture). The straight drain pipe that feed the main line is about 9 inches below the top of the slab floor. What I was thinking of doing is using a combination of a 90 and 45 degree elbows and spacers to get me the correct location of the new drain. It seems weird but will that work? I'm hoping not to break-up anymore concrete. Please help.

cx 03-21-2010 12:10 PM

Welcome, Al. :)

It'll help a lot if you'll keep all your project questions on this thread rather than starting a new thread with each new question.

I would absolutely avoid adding any quarter bends (90-degree elbows) to that line. Looks like an eighth bend, if cut back far enough along the pipe, might get you the required movement. A sixteenth-bend might even do it, and that would be preferred if it'll work. A fella wants as few and as little in the way of elbows as he can get by with in a WC drain line.

If you gotta break more concrete, you break more concrete, far as I'm concerned.

My opinion; worth price charged.

Army1 05-02-2010 12:59 PM

Stress crack in Durock
 
2 Attachment(s)
During tile installation i notice a horizontal stress crack on the shower vertical wall ( see photo ). This is one area that i was not able to install vertical or horizontal supports do to shower piping. In this area, Durock is fasten to the studs at 22" OC with screws. Should i cover the stress crack with Durock glass fiber tape and thinset or should I make a horizontal stress relief cut across the board in the crack area? This Durock has been in place for over a month. Please help

John Bridge 05-02-2010 01:28 PM

Hi Al, Go Army!. ;)

I think I would use the mesh tape on the crack and treat it like any other joint in the backer board. I'm not a backer board pro, though. :)

Houston Remodeler 05-02-2010 02:13 PM

Why worry about it? Tape and surface mud isn't going to add any real structural strength and we ain't worried about waterproofing here....

22" OC ? I usually add horizontal framing to studs that far apart.

custombuilt 05-02-2010 02:57 PM

I agree that is a little wide for stud spacing, but I wouldn't worry about that crack too much. Durarock sometimes has those.

Army1 05-02-2010 03:36 PM

Stress crack in Durock
 
Thanks a million. I'll add tape in that area and move on. I think i'll sleep better tonight. This site is excellent.

Army1 09-26-2010 07:06 AM

Toilet Closet Flange problem
 
1 Attachment(s)
In doing a bathroom remodeling, I had to relocate the toilet and as you can see from the picture the flange is offset. I'm now at the point of adding the tile floor and i have to resolve this problem. I can't slide the tile underneath one side and i'm at a loss on how to proceed. The options that i'm thinking of are:
1) Saw the flange from the inside out (PVC) and glue a new flange at the correct elevation using a union ( will need to get a tool)
2) Maybe just tile around the flange and add additional mud underneath the flange for support and add a beefy wax ring (with horn).
3)Breakup the concrete, again, and install a new flange to the proper height.
I have already run the toilet with option 2 but without the proper flange support and seems to work fine but i'm still concern. Please help. Your advice is greatly appreciated.

Hammy 09-26-2010 07:47 AM

Al, can you get under the floor? If so you might be able to release some strapping and raise the pipe that 1/4" you need.

OR cut some plywood or wood to shim up the flange. The commode when installed does not sit or press down on the flange, actually it does just the opposite. When you tighten the bolts you are pulling up on the flange.

I personally NEVER run my tile under the flange.

Instead of the wood under the flange you could place a stack of washers under each bolt. I use coarse thread brass or rust resistant screws to secure the flange to the floor. The commode actually sits on the tile not the flange.

Hope all that helps. Hammy

Spence 09-26-2010 08:07 AM

I'm no expert, but I agree: I've never put tile under a flange either, though many folks around here might recommend it.

Another option for shimming the flange could be to use composite shims (I wouldn't feel comfortable with any kinda wood shims under a toilet).

Like Hammy said, the toilet base will be resting on the tile around the flange, and the bolts will pull the flange upward toward the toilet to make a tight seal. You do wanna make sure that the flange can't be moved upward when you tighten the bolts or when someone leans on the toilet. So, if it were me, I would probably shim it, put four tapcons through it into the slab, and then tile around it and use a big wax ring. (Of course, there is rarely a reason NOT to use a big wax ring.)

Scottish Tile and Stone 09-26-2010 08:11 AM

Ive done 1,000's of bathrooms and never ran my tile under the flange. The flange needs to be screwed down to the subfloor. If there is a slight height difference in the flange and finished floor, you can use a flange adapter or get a extra thick wax ring.

Looking at your pic, is that a wood subfloor your tiling over? Or are you planning on adding another layer of CBU or ditra?

Army1 09-26-2010 09:57 AM

Toilet Closet Flange problem
 
Sorry about the picture but the flange is on a concrete slab. It makes a lot of sense to tile around the flange. Should i then secure the flange to the slab with concrete screws and use good wax ring?

B Luv 09-26-2010 10:03 AM

That pipe is most likely secure in that concrete. I would shim that flange so there is no chance of snapping it off, but I think the screws might be over kill since it's set in concrete. Use a thick wax ring for sure and make sure it's seated properly.

If Davy's around he can show you a fast way to cut the circle in your tile with his new grinder! :stick:

Spence 09-26-2010 10:15 AM

I would highly recommend putting a few screws into the flange. If it were a one-piece flange, it might not matter, but since you have a steel ring you may experience a problem. The original flange in my guest bathroom was installed without screws. The flange was secure in the concrete, but the steel ring was able to twist ever so slightly around the flange. This introduced some unwanted movement to the situation, and over time that subtle movement caused the wax ring to fail.

When dealing with toilets, I like overkill! So much easier to put a few concrete screws in now than to clean it up later! :crap:

jadziedzic 09-26-2010 10:32 AM

The guys on Terry Love's plumbing forum may have some suggestions - one of them has said he can "peel" the hub part of the fitting away from the pipe, so that might be an option here.

cx 09-26-2010 10:40 AM

Al, once again, please keep all your project questions on one thread so folks can see the history and what's been previously asked and answered. We can give it a more generic title any time you'd like to suggest one. :)

The correct installation of a WC flange is on top of the finished floor, regardless how many folks tell you they always do it another way. I'd try to make mine that way if that's an option.

My opinion; worth price charged.

dhagin 09-26-2010 03:02 PM

The height of the closet flange is more important than whether it actually sits on top of the finished flooring material. As long as the height of the bottom of the flange is at the same height as the finished floor, you're good. Use plywood "shims" under the flange if needed for support & to raise it up. It's also important to have proper framing to support the toilet and that the flange is solidly attached to the framing. Floor mount toilets depend on a solidly attached flange to hold them down & keep them from rocking & rolling - which can cause leaks and other problems.

More wax rings or wax with an extension are not ideal solutions and can reduce the drain pipe dimension. Better to rough-in the flange to the correct height, or use a flange adapter(s) to bring it up to the correct height. :)

Hammy 09-26-2010 03:50 PM

I missed the first part where it was set in concrete. I too would tap-con it down. Do not over tighten the Tap-cons, resulting in a busted flange. If my flange is lower than the finished floor, I use an extender. Very seldom on a remodel do I have the flange sitting on the finished floor.

Hammy


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