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TileArt1 06-16-2009 01:40 PM

The health care debate
Let's see if we can actually rationally discuss an issue. :rolleyes:

The big battle cry from the right seems to be (to me, anyway) that President Obama wants to nationalize health care so that taxes are paying for everyone. I don't think that is the case. In fact, I believe that to be a ludicrous presumption but, again, that's just me. It is effective in that it gets all the "true conservatives" in an uproar and they can continuously chant "socialism" as the rebuttal. And it works.

I don't want "socialized medicine". What I do want is to be able to afford health insurance for me, my wife, and our three children without wondering if I should pay that bill or my mortgage. It's ridiculous!

So I'll throw out what I think needs to happen - I think there needs to be regulation on insurance companies and what they are allowed to do! My wife has rheumatoid arthritis and to attempt to insure her is a nightmare. Why are insurance companies allowed to pick and choose what or who gets covered? I know - it's a business. I have no problem with that. Here's what I do have a problem with, as soon as she was diagnosed with RA our insurance company dropped us like a hot rock! I won't mention any names but the initials are SF. :D After we had been with them for seven years. So now what? I ask the question and I get "well they have to make money" No sh$%%&#T! But my wife has to have a decent life and reliable health care also. But since they have to make money that priority trumps ours. Why is that? There needs to be in place a system of some sort to be able to make health care affordable for everyone - that's all I want. I don't want socialized medicine. I just want my wife to be able to get her medication AND the new used car she wants. We had to forego that because her medication is $1650 a month!

So all of you conservatives that believe the free market will solve everything - what is going to solve cases like mine? I work my ass off and pay taxes, I like to think I'm a productive member of society, am I asking for a handout? I'm just one guy - with a job. I don't want charity, what I want is common sense. Why is that called "socialism"?

How would you solve this problem? The "free market" apparently hasn't done it - in fact I believe it to be a large part of the cause. What is your solution? Or do you think everything is just fine as it is?

I know it won't happen, but can we attempt to remain civil?

e3 06-16-2009 01:58 PM

First--Sorry to hear of your situation...You like millions of AMERICANS are in a ,no way out situation..I to am hoping that one of the Rrr ,,,,Conservatives can solve the problem before it hits them..

jgleason 06-16-2009 02:18 PM

I'm not sure we can have a rational debate on this when you presuppose that the republicans or conservatives are evil monsters opposing reform of healthcare. Nice way to set up the debate by framing the other side as being the ones with the rotten attitude.

My .02 cents...

What passes for health insurance in today's system is nothing more than prepaid health care. Insurance should be offered at several levels of coverage and deductibles with max payouts etc. You should be free to purchase it or not just like you can with automobile insurance. The contract you sign with the insurance company should spell out the conditions on which they will pay, what the premiums will be and whatever else is needed to satisfy both parties.

Health care insurance should not be dependent on where one works or doesn't work. My employer doesn't offer to pay my automobile insurance, I don't see why I should be limited to whatever plan they offer.

dhagin 06-16-2009 02:33 PM


Originally Posted by Joe
You should be free to purchase it or not just like you can with automobile insurance.

Hopefully I'm not taking this out of context. In WA state, we are not free to not purchase auto ins. The state requires a minimum level, just as they do for contractors.

Maybe there should be a requirement for a minimum level of coverage chosen from existing options?

jgleason 06-16-2009 02:41 PM

Hi Dana,

Well over here in NH you are not required to purchase automobile insurance. Live Free or Die!!

Insurance is to cover the risk of whatever you are insuring. The amount of coverage you get should be the amount you feel that you need.

Personal responsibility.

TileArt1 06-16-2009 02:50 PM


I do not presuppose that either side is evil. The "set up" and "frame" was not intentional. The comment stems from the posts in another thread that offer absolutely no alternative solutions and do nothing but pound on the other side's position with seemingly prefabricated notions. I find it difficult to have a rational discussion in a thread named "King Obama", that's ridiculous to me.

It seems to me that all the conservative side has done in this issue is beat the "socialism" drum and offer ABSOLUTELY NO RATIONAL ALTERNATIVE! Sorry if that sound a bit bitter but isn't that why no rational alternative ever gets reached? I do not solve a problem by insisting the other side is wrong.

That's why I'm not in Congress.

I know not everyone (conservatives or republicans or liberals or democrats, etc. etc.) thinks the same way but why only one point of view or the other? Hence the purpose of this thread. It just seems to me that rather than discuss viable alternatives the only thing anyone can do is start "educating" everyone on why something won't work rather than explaining what they think will work. Both sides are guilty of this.

Is this an incorrect assumption on my part?

jgleason 06-16-2009 03:00 PM

I've offered up my take on the situation. In essence, the federal government has plainly overstepped its authority in many facets of our lives. My own personal view is that the federal government can not and should not be involved in solving much of anything. More often than not they get in the way and cause more problems than they ever solve.

tilerite 06-16-2009 03:50 PM

Sorry to hear about your wife. My wife has suffered with a particularly aggressive form of RA for roughly 17 years. She even spent 8 years on disability before putting herself through nursing school and going to back to work as a nurse. Curious as to which medicines your wife has tried and which one's work. We've been through just about every single one.
Ok, back to the topic at hand. To adequately tackle the health care issues, something we are NOT doing; we need to address the root causes of the problems. First, we seriously need tort reform. Insurance costs for doctors and even nurses, is insane and drives up the costs. Ok, now for the real health care fix;
We have become a reactive society as opposed to being a preventative one i.e. its all about treating ailments instead of preventing them. My wife works on a diabetic/heart unit. She regulatory sees people in my age range with major health issues. I'm 48 years old. I'm 6 foot and weight 160. I could not imagine having heart problems.
Americans are fat and unhealthy. We live off of fast food. We do not exercise like we should and we certainly do not get checkups like we should. Seems we should be focusing on preventing the sickness rather than concentrating on how to pay for treating it.
I'm not exactly sure what governments role should be. I'm dead against socialized health care. Instead of paying for something they could never afford; why can't they pay for a once per year wellness exam for every American?? Other than that, I really don't know how to force people to be healthy. I don't get why we don't take care of ourselves.
I eat a good diet that consists mostly of home cooking. I do not not eat fast food more than once per week. I read the ingredients of everything I purchase at the food markets. Hydrogenated oils do not find their way into my house. Nor does soda or products that are ridiculously high in salt and sugar. I purchase local chicken which is 100% naturally fed. I only feed my family organic milk (regular milk has traces of growth hormones). I also try to eat my fair share of veggies and fruit.
As for exercise; I spent the last two days tearing out a mud bathroom by myself. Need I say more?? I also walk a lot. My only vice is; I like to have a few drinks on the weekends but I do it in moderation. The mentality of Americans needs to change and it needs to start with parents. I'm appalled at how some of my kids friends live. Education is the key to a healthy nation.
Oh yeah, we are also a nation that loves our drugs. Doctors make easy money by writing ridiculous prescriptions. What are you guys currently taking and how necessary is it?? I bet half of what you folks are taking, are unnecessary. I take Allegra for allergies in the spring and aspirins for headaches and/or aches and pains. Nothing else except for vitamin C with Ester which prevents colds. In fact, I actually got off the Allegra's by taking 2 tablespoons of local honey for one month. We really need to focus on the root causes of our health problems if we're ever going to solve this humongous problem.

HS345 06-16-2009 04:03 PM

Roger, you need to clean the wax outta yer.....um......eyes? :D Not only have I offered potential solutions, but many of my questions about your side's solutions go unanswered. Why?

I thought the same thing as Joe. Basically the original post asked for civil debate, as long as your not an evil conservative. :drevil:

java 06-16-2009 04:05 PM


After you click that link look to the right and find the video that says Obama's Health.....

Waste 4 minutes of your time and learn.

TileArt1 06-16-2009 04:24 PM

She's tried just about everything that was out four years ago and finally ended up on a combination of Hydroxychloroquine (Plaquenil) and Methotrexate (Trexall). No single medication ever worked significantly well but after several attempts at combined meds this one has worked fairly well for the last three years or so.

Medical professionals' insurance costs are another way the insurance companies control medical costs. Another reason for some sort of regulation and something I've given a lot of thought to. A large part of it stems from assinine lawsuits by people that have no business trying to sue anyone.

I think if you attempt to sue and lose you should be charged with a crime. You'll get a fair trial and all, but if a jury of your peers decides you've wasted the state's time because you were too stupid to know that hot coffee will burn you if you spill it on your crotch without having that written on the cup - you need a swift kick in the ass. Yeah, it'll never happen but it's fun to think about.


Originally Posted by Joe
Personal responsibility.

I agree! Is it my responsibility that Insurance companies drive up costs to the point that I need a second and third job? Or is it theirs? Personal responsibility should go hand in hand in part with corporate responsibility. It isn't my responsibility that the jackass in the next room ate seven big macs a day for ten years then sued his doctor because he wasn't warned he may be headed for heart failure, is it? Rick is right - people need to take responsibility for their own health. If they choose not to do so, though, why should that put my families health in jeapordy because I can't afford the insurance companies cost to cover that lawsuit?

I'm all for personal responsibility as long as someone else's lack thereof doesn't affect my ability to take personal responsibility for me and my family. Try to say that fast three times. :D

TileArt1 06-16-2009 04:28 PM


Originally Posted by Greg
but many of my questions about your side's solutions go unanswered

I don't have a side, Greg. I thought we've discussed that - a lot.

Sorry, I didn't look in your "I hate the President King so I'm gonna start this" thread for your health care plan. Strangely I didn't think it would be there. Weird, huh? :D

jgleason 06-16-2009 04:41 PM

Sorry to harp on auto insurance but it is the closest thing to compare. In NH the insurance premiums you pay and the coverages you select are highly dependent on the personal choices you make. Compared to Massachusetts, which highly regulates the automobile insurance (no fault insurance, etc.) the premiums you pay are exorbitantly high and your choices are limited.

Government interference in the marketplace tends to distort the prices you pay and the options that are available.

We have something of an indicator as to how the costs will rise under government health care. Take a look at Medicare and what the politicians said it would cost versus what it costs now. It is rife with fraud and abuse which the feds can't seem to fix.

TileArt1 06-16-2009 04:43 PM

Perhaps Jason's response will give everyone a hint as to why my original post sounds the way it does to you. Everyone is railing on me because it sounds like I'm absolutely against conservative's point of view - I'm not.

Glenn Beck's brand of, well, whatever he's calling it this week is exactly what I'm talking about. Four whole minutes of my life I'll never get back explaining to me why you think the other side is wrong. Thanks.

Guess I just missed the alternative, viable solution part? :yeah:

jgleason 06-16-2009 04:46 PM

You don't like my solution?

TileArt1 06-16-2009 04:56 PM

No Joe, your solution that Government stay the hell out of everyone's life is perfect for me. Really, I'm not being facetious. We would have to get rid of lobbyists though, no? That would be a perfect world. If government couldn't affect my life then the free market would truly reign. I'm all for that. But when insurance companies can send their lobbyists to the hill to decide exactly how much government can interfere in my life - that defeats the entire purpose of a free market in my opinion.

But don't tell anyone I said that because that is the conservative point of view and I'm a liberal whacko (self-proclaimed but Greg helped). :D

And I just had my eyes waxed, Greg! :complain:

HS345 06-16-2009 05:08 PM


I hope it didn't hurt.........too much. :drevil:

jgleason 06-16-2009 05:08 PM

Careful Roger, I might have to send you over to Marge for a Brazilian. :devil:

If the feds stayed out of it there wouldn't be any need for the lobbyists.

e3 06-16-2009 05:33 PM

1 lipitor $3.00 -the med co. are a part of this problem.

tilerite 06-16-2009 05:36 PM

My wife has been on Remicade, Arava, Kineret and so many more that I have already forgotten. Nothing worked until she got on Humira. One shot every two weeks and it works wonders. If your wife hasn't tried Humira, she may want to discuss it with her doctor. No, I'm not a Humira salesman.:)

java 06-16-2009 05:49 PM

Tileart I don't think you really listened to what was on that video.

Ok, so there was not another solution. There wasn't supposed to be. It's only showing you the truth about what OBAMA's plan is. Nothing more. I didn't call anyone names and neither did Glenn.

You want to discuss the health care debate then feel like you wasted 4 minutes when someone focuses on the issue.

Watch it again and listen how they are setting us up. Glenn doesn't put words in their mouths. They admit what the real plan is. How it is gona be presented and what the real end game is.

TileArt1 06-16-2009 06:17 PM


Originally Posted by Jason
Tileart I don't think you really listened to what was on that video

Why is it that if I don't agree with something I somehow have not paid attention or I just don't get it?

OK, then let me clarify. I know what Glenn Beck's ilk believe to be the plan. He toes the fear-mongoring line very well. He makes a very good living at it. I will not listen to it again. I've been listening to that, or some form of it, every time I venture to turn on AM radio or Fox news. Yes, I actually do that, strange, yes? I am absolutely open to alternative ideas. It just seems to me that those are lacking.
To be frank I'm not interested in what people feel is wrong with the opposing point of view. As I've previously stated that doesn't really solve anything, does it? If that's what you feel is the current administrations end game, so be it. I learned long ago I'm not gonna change your mind. Not trying to.
The problem at present, as I see it, is lack of viable alternatives. Got one?

jgleason 06-16-2009 06:22 PM


Originally Posted by TileArt1
The problem at present, as I see it, is lack of viable alternatives. Got one?

I don't believe the plan(s) as being put forth by Obama or Kennedy are viable. Just because there isn't a viable alternative at the moment doesn't mean we should all jump on board the current proposals.

I would argue that doing nothing is more viable than anything propsed so far.

HS345 06-16-2009 06:30 PM

Sooooo, when the opposing point of view doesn't jibe with yours, that's labeled "fear mongering", and dismissed out of hand?

Nice civil debate you got going there Roger. :rolleyes:


No the redwings smiley doesn't have anything to do with my post, I just wanted to use the new smiley. :D

TileArt1 06-16-2009 06:37 PM

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Your view doesn't agree with mine, yet I've never accused you of that. Beck, on the other hand, makes a living at it. That, of course, is my opinion. The fact that I dislike GB (Beck) makes a discussion uncivil? OK. Sorry to offend.
Thanks for your opinion.

jgleason 06-16-2009 06:38 PM

Guys, let's try to stay on point. Picking at each other is not helpful.

TileArt1 06-16-2009 06:54 PM

Ummm, with me and Greg that is staying on point. :D:D:D

jgleason 06-16-2009 06:57 PM

You got me there Roger. :D

java 06-16-2009 07:01 PM

Ok Tileart, fair enough, you don't like the messenger. Now then, do you want a single payer (Govt. only health plan) or a Govt. health care plan that leaves the private markets viable?

sandbagger 06-16-2009 07:02 PM


Originally Posted by Roger
The "free market" apparently hasn't done it -....

Free Market? Where would you find that? It certainly does not exist in the US. The simple fact of the matter is it is government intervention and over-regulation that is causing the bulk of the problems that our benevolent government is now proposing to solve.

HUH? :scratch:

The old phrase about tossing gasoline on a fire comes to mind. :bang:

HS345 06-16-2009 07:03 PM

I think yer eye waxer missed a spot Roger, here, lemme hep a brother out. :stick:

Just stayin' on "point" Joe.


jgleason 06-16-2009 07:05 PM

Y'all need to play nice, I'm not going to be up all night riding herd on you. :shades:

HS345 06-16-2009 07:09 PM

We are playing nice Joe, it wasn't even a pointy stick. :yeah:

Me and Roger got an unnerstanding, correct me if I'm wrong Roger. :)

Nuthin' personal, I will tone it down, I wouldn't wanna keep you up all night Joe. :yawn:

jgleason 06-16-2009 07:11 PM

I've got more important things to do you know...:cheers:


HS345 06-16-2009 07:16 PM

I know this isn't what some of you wanna hear, but you can't hide from the truth. Well, you can, but it will get you in the end.......er.......eventually. :o

The Public Plan Deception - It's Not About Choice

java 06-16-2009 07:16 PM


Free Market? Where would you find that? It certainly does not exist in the US.
Not in the health sector for sure. Govt. intervention is the reason for the whole convoluted mess. And the biggest reason our medicines cost thousands a month. Thanks a bunch FDA.

TileArt1 06-16-2009 07:17 PM


I would prefer health care without government in it at all. We're (America) clearly past the point where that can happen at all though, yes? Barring that I would like a plan that would make possible for people that cannot get insurance without mortgaging their home (my wife, for instance) to be covered.

Whether that is a government run program (sucks) or simply forcing (regulating) insurance in some form so that they are not able to simply drop coverage after loyal patronage after seven years (without using it for anything - ever). How to do that? I dunno.

Ideally I would prefer absolutely free market system. In which case companies like that would be immediately weeded out and go under. Who's gonna use their insurance after a couple of those episodes? But as Art has pointed out - where you gonna find that?

So yes, although government interference has probably played a big part in getting to this point I feel it is probably necessary in the form of reigning in the insurance and pharmaceutical companies in some form.

Why have insurance at all if, when something beyond your control happens, you are dropped and end up paying cash anyway? Isn't that why we get insurance to begin with? What's the point?

TileArt1 06-16-2009 07:19 PM

Yup, we are playing nice. :D I haven't even done this :bonk: to him . . . yet.

java 06-16-2009 07:24 PM

Roger, what do you think Obama is gona really give us? What is it that you are hearing him say? Single Payer or just a govt. plan that picks up the slack?

And just so you know, I feel for ya brother. I have no insurance for myself. I pay every month for a Blue Cross/ Blue Shield policy on my daughter. My wife, who is Navajo, gets 'injun care (it's free but it sucks).

TileArt1 06-16-2009 07:39 PM

I firmly believe that he eventually plans to give us exactly what you think he plans - single payer health care. I also firmly believe it will never happen.

Here's the thing, though, something different is going to happen. And it's about *&%$$#* time. The only thing different that has happened significantly, and by that I mean directly effecting me or my family, since I was on my own is, well, nothing. And it was fine, never needed it. I always took comfort in the fact that it would be there if we did need it, though. That's how most people look at it, until they do need it.

As far as I'm concerned insurance companies are simply legal crooks. Not all, mind you, I'm certain not all of them operate the same way. But if you put your trust in one then get dropped, good luck trying to find a trustful one to accept you after you've been diagnosed.

I believe, and Greg will correct me if I'm wrong :D, that people that don't need it see nothing wrong with the current situation. As has been stated, doing nothing is more viable than the current proposals. For someone that doesn't pay over $1500 a month for medication I'm sure it is. :) And although I'm sure they can see fault in the current system there is no immediate need for changing it. Just wait for something better to come along. Wish I had that luxury. :)

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