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-   -   Shower floor-vinyl pan (https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=127816)

cherij0411 07-21-2019 01:40 PM

Shower floor-vinyl pan
I feel so dumb. We did a bathroom remodel about 5 years back and I did a lot of research on here and harassed the tile guy to make sure waterproofing and shower floor pan done right.

We decided to redo bathroom in our second home the contractor is retired from the union and now has a small business doing kitchen baths and handy man type stuff at the community we live in.

He started tiling the walls of the shower this weekend and stupid me asks now instead of before what waterproofing system he uses. Well it’s not that right answer and I don’t know what to do. It’s not all done and floor is not done yet.

He said this

Silicone seal at wall and base before tile install, three walls have mr board over cement board and 4 th wall has vapor barrier behind MR board. Floor is vinyl pan which is MR rated.

Will not have a problem with leaking.

So now what?

How can I be sure at least the floor is installed with a moisture barrier? What should I insist must be done?


cx 07-21-2019 03:19 PM

Welcome back, Cheri. :)

I don't understand this part:

Originally Posted by Cheri
Silicone seal at wall and base before tile install, three walls have mr board over cement board and 4 th wall has vapor barrier behind MR board. Floor is vinyl pan which is MR rated.

By MR board you're talking about some form of gypsum drywall, tinted green or purple or some such? And this drywall is in some places layered on top of a cementitious backer board? And in at least one wall you have only MR board over a polyethylene sheeting covering an insulated exterior stud wall? And he is adhering tile directly to the face of this MR board?

And your "vinyl pan" is what, exactly? I don't understand what sort of shower receptor would be Moisture Resistant rated.

Let's clear some of that up so we can determine just what condition your project is in currently. Some in-progress photos would help a great deal, too. Sounds thus far as though the only thing we could recommend would be to tear out what you've got and have someone competent start over, but perhaps it's all in the translation?

My opinion; worth price charged.

cherij0411 07-21-2019 03:49 PM

Pics attached
3 Attachment(s)
The board is green. What I wrote in the post is exactly what he wrote to means. I asked about waterproofing.

jadnashua 07-21-2019 04:35 PM

Drywall, even the MR stuff, has no place in a shower unless it's covered with a waterproof membrane approved for use over it (Kerdi and Hydroban Sheet are the two I'm aware of that are approved for that use).

The whole shower should be moisture resistant prior to the addition of tile, grout, or caulking.

Without knowing exactly what's on the shower pan, hard to say, but given what else is there now, it probably does not meet any of the various methods depicted in the industry bible, the TCNA handbook. ONe particularly critical area is the shower curb. When using a vinyl pan liner, that liner MUST be sloped to the drain. This requires a preslope, then the liner, then another layer of mud on top that the tile can be adhered to along with a properly installed drain with the weep holes purposely kept clear so that can drain. In the industry, the tile, grout, caulking are all considered wear resistant, decorative components...not waterproofing. ANyone that says otherwise, is going against the whole industry with a huge history of experience totalling probably millions of hours. Note, there should be NO penetrations in the liner below 2" above the top of the curb, and that very distinctly includes the curb itself. Outside, down low is fine, as that's out of the wet area, but up the inside and over the top, NO nails or screws are allowed. That means, you cannot attach cement board to your curb through the liner.

Davy 07-21-2019 04:43 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hi Cheri, here's a pic of green board and this shower had cement board over the green board. Your shower doesn't even have that. You can see the black mold. Like Jim, I'd like to see what the curb looks like.

cherij0411 07-21-2019 04:59 PM

Ok so at this point I guess he will he ripping out and applying a waterproof membrane. In regards to the floor what is the best option? What should be done instead of the vinyl? I have not seen pics of the curb yet. Thank you

jadnashua 07-21-2019 05:26 PM

There's nothing wrong with a shower built using a vinyl liner. It will function well and last a long time IF it is installed properly. Personally, I prefer one of the more modern methods that puts the waterproofing all on top, right underneath the tile, but it isn't required for a reliable shower. It's just as easy to mess one of those up as a conventional one.

Building a properly functional shower isn't technically hard, but it is very detail oriented...mess up one detail, and it can fail, sometimes quite quickly, and sometimes catastrophically. It all comes down to knowledge and the skill to execute. The tile could look horrible, and still be a properly functional shower. Conversely, it could look perfect, and fail quickly. Most people look at the finished product, but you really want both components done well. IOW, the foundation is critical for proper operation, the surface is nice to look good, but isn't required.

cherij0411 07-21-2019 05:37 PM

I basically told him I am not comfortable with him finishing the tile install without a waterproof membrane and I would rather have it started over with the Kerdi membrane. He said he has been doing showers for 40 years with his method and is not familiar with mine.

I don’t know what to do he is in Florida I am in mass and he probably thinks I am a stupid woman who has no clue. Well I am Stupid for assuming and not checking waterproofing method prior.

Lazarus 07-21-2019 05:56 PM

We hear alla time, "Been doing it this way for (choose one) 30 or 40 years" doesn't mean squat. Great, so you have been doing this all that time incorrectly? I would want a list of folks from 30 years ago and how long that shower lasted.......:yeah:

mrberryman 07-21-2019 08:05 PM

I'm a painter and did my own tub surround and bathroom remodel myself for the house I'm living in. (Parent's house...) I worked with another guy who acts as a GC sometimes and is 50-60ish years old, too. The topic of tile came up and I said "Yeah, waterproofing for showers is really important..." He's like "Uh... what do you mean?" "There's waterproof paints and sheeting you can buy that you put up before you tile after putting the cement board up..." Then he replied back with "Well, I've never seen it done before, and I've been doing this 30 years blah blah, what you're saying sounds nice but I've never seen it in the real world." Also claimed to never have torn out a moldy shower? I just shook my head and moved on. Also gave stupid advice to a homeowner about cracked tiles in her bathroom and how she needed 1/4" ply (sorta doesn't exist, only luan...) under it to stop the deflection, like it'd matter.

I think the generalized knowledge about waterproofing and all that is pretty poor. My DIY job has lippage and bad cuts, but it was worth it to have it all be waterproofed right.

To be fair I think greenboard and mastic might have actually lasted a long time with 4x4 tiles. I'm pretty sure the shower in my house was pretty old when it was torn out, but the tiles fell off on the side of the tub area and there were a few loose ones to the touch and some cracked grout. I think with those small tiles, and using say, a v-notch, there's very little chance of a lot of space behind the tile, thus not a lot of water can really collect behind the tile and rot everything out, but then with 12x24s and especially spot bonding, you have even if you get 100% coverage, a lot of space behind the tile, at least 1/4" or so of mortar that will keep the water inside after it's wet, then that gallon or so of water trapped behind the tile rots the green board out in short order.

Davy 07-22-2019 05:00 AM

Like Cheri's shower and the pic I posted, the installer calls the green board waterproofing.

cherij0411 07-22-2019 07:04 AM

Well he is ripping it all out and using the Durock tile backer board as I suggested. He did google as I kept sending him links to the green boArd not being acceptable and he understood but maintains he has never had a problem. I said I am not willing to gamble on it. I was nice and of course said I would pay for extra time but I can’t accept a shower without waterproofing.

e3 07-22-2019 07:18 AM

Gypsum board ,of any color was removed by the Tile Council Of America and ANSI for use in wet areas. Surface applied membranes have been around since the early eighties if not before . So if over the past 40 years they are not failure with them they might be still using rotary phones and typewriters.

Davy 07-22-2019 03:31 PM

Cheri, Durock will work but it's still not waterproof. He needs to use a moisture barrier (felt paper or poly)behind the Durock OR use a surface applied membrane over the Durock like Eric mentioned. Redgard, Hydroban (there are others) are popular, they can be brushed and rolled on the Durock to waterproof it before tiling.

jadnashua 07-22-2019 04:36 PM

FWIW, all showers should have a waterproof pan, but many of the industry accepted methods only deal with water RESISTANT walls. Gravity plays the major factor in that design...the pan will receive all of the water that hits either it directly, or runs down the walls. A sheet membrane can make the entire shower waterPROOF. Liquid applied membranes can, but are, IMHO, much harder to actually accomplish. On a water resistant method, the goal is to keep moisture from penetrating into the wall structure, thus the moisture membrane behind the walls that protects the studs and the rest of the wall structure.

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