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ddmoit 08-08-2009 10:26 AM

No Ben, the free market will not change the essence of human nature. Neither does government intervention. It's hardly fair to hold the free market to a standard of perfection when nothing else measures up.

I maintain that the free market - given the imperfections of man - is the best system under which to operate. It is a system of voluntary cooperation that civilized societies adopt in the absence of coercion.

sandbagger 08-08-2009 10:32 AM

Ben - OPEC has been trying to drive the price of oil/gas up for years. I don't see how one guy with a few tankers could have a major impact. All he was doing was holding out for a better price. In reality he could have lost his shirt if he'd bet wrong and oil prices had tanked. :rolleyes:

like Dan said - if the farmers in Idaho decided to hold out you can bet that the farmers in Kansas would jump in to take the market away from them.

We do have anti-trust laws in place to deal with the rare case where someone gets a true monopoly and tries to manipulate the market. Frankly, I have doubts that we'll ever see the conditions again that prompted the passage of those laws in the first place.

What's particularly frustrating about these discussions is all the attacks on how the "free" market doesn't work. How would anyone know? Can you give me even one example of a market that the government doesn't touch in some manner? :scratch:

ob1kanobee 08-08-2009 10:41 AM

Dan, I'm glad you understand my point. I would have to say you are onto something as to what you have in mind (true free market) given the current state of man, would probably fair better than what we have.

I don't know nearly as much as you do about a true free market but I think we both agree it wouldn't change human nature and eventually have its share of problems too.

Dan I'm not really holding the free market to a standard of perfection but rather stating until there is some sort of Godly intervention (Theocracy) all forms of government are doomed to fail no matter how good they may sound or look on paper.

I'm not trying to be a Bible thumper but the bible clearly states to not put your trust in Nobles or the son's of man.

ob1kanobee 08-08-2009 10:49 AM

this wasn't some guy with just a few tankers and risk was minimal. This guy doesn't lose. Did you happen to read the article about it and his bio?

Another thing, he made them 8 Billion on one hand but what did he cost them on the other. Ten times that? Prices of everything going up. How much money do you think they may have lost due to his actions. (mortgage defaults, loan defaults, ect. ect.) Those high gas prices put a huge strain on the economy. Nobody even knew this guy and his crew of 50 employees was even doing this till his bonus came into question.

There is some serious talk out there about the impact this guy had on our economy but nobody can put a number on it and all the top people are keeping their lips sealed. Now he has to see what is gonna happen with the pay czar.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

sandbagger 08-08-2009 11:07 AM

Ben - whatever he did he ultimately should be held accountable to the stockholders, not some pay czar. I also argue that it is the myriad of bad regulation/over-regulation that has set the stage for him and BofA to do what they did in the first place.

Remember, it was not free market that caused the housing bubble. Without the phoney safety net of Fannie/Freddie most of those bad loans would never have been made.

There are always unintended consequences of government meddling. :bang:

ob1kanobee 08-08-2009 11:30 AM

I see your point and I am coming around to some agreement on this issue with you. The regulation that they use sometimes causes certain financial institutions to look for loopholes or do things they shouldn't be doing. I see it in the insurance industry and even if they were not doing anything wrong in some instances it hurts the consumer in added costs because they are passed down.

Your right about this one Art! :tup2:

ob1kanobee 08-08-2009 04:42 PM

Art / Dan
I do have another question again or two.

You said with the phony safety nets of Fannie and Freddy these loans would probably not have been made.

Now I have to ask, about two years ago and to this day loans were getting very hard to get unless you had a substantial down payment. Well I believe every safety net is still in place that was there before up till now yet it is not so easy to get a loan anymore which is contradictory to your rebuttal. Fannie and Freddy are still around same as before. Why aren't these loans being made?

No more of those no income verification loans out there.
Credit score has to be good to very good.

Did the free market change that and if so why was the free market allowing it in the first place if it is so great?

Or did the free market allow it and the government now is saying, no no no. Borrowers need to fit certain criteria.

Now on another note after you answer that:
I almost feel like what we really have is a semi free market already. It isn't absolutely free but it isn't absolutely captive.

The experts say we don't have a "true free market" suggesting we do have a free market to a degree but not to the degree that someone like Dan would like to see.

However, when you give absolute power to a government or an institution such as the federal Reserve you get corruption. I forget what famous person in history is noted for saying this....so by giving absolute power to a free market, doing away with the Fed and going back on a gold standard is still giving absolute power to another system.

Essentially you are just changing the system and transferring absolute power which leads to what we have here today.

John Bridge 08-08-2009 04:44 PM

I believe in a certain amount of regulation as long as it's constitutional. Governments at all levels need to pass laws and regulate. The Constitution acknowledges that. But government should only regulate when there is no free-market way to achieve an end.

As to people not being capable of governing themselves, I don't believe that for a minute. For better or for worse we have indeed been governing ourselves for well over two centuries. Maybe we haven't done it as well as we could have, but we've done it. What we are doing here is delineating our mistakes and failures, hoping to find a way to correct them. :)

As to charity and compassion, I'd like to cite Alexis de Toqueville and his Democracy in America (c. 1830). One of the things Toqueville was most impressed with were the "organizations" that Americans had in place. Charity back then was thriving and ongoing in the completed absence of government intervention. If something needed to be done, somebody would organize a committee at the very lowest level to accommodate it. If it didn't work out at that level it was moved up to the next. Nobody thought about calling on the "central" government for anything short of national defense. :)

How times have changed, eh? ;)

ob1kanobee 08-08-2009 04:52 PM


Can you show me a society or government in history that has been capable of governing themselves?

If the Bible says it can't be done are you one of the kind that pick and choose what you want to practice from it? I don't know, you may not even believe in the Bible, I don't know your faith.

In 6,000 years though, no human government has been capable of governing themselves without dominating another man to his injury and the Bible clearly states not to put your trust in Nobles. If you know anything about the Bible, what do you think that means?

cx 08-08-2009 06:01 PM

C'mon, Ben, this thread is about health care and government interference therein. There are plenty of religious threads out there for debate about what this or that particular bible says or doesn't say, means or doesn't mean. Let's try to keep this one at least sorta on track, eh?

Not sure how we even got into the bad mortgage loans here, but that was not caused by any free market forces, either. The lending institutions were forced to make loans to unqualified borrowers by the federal government as a tool of social regulation. That, of course, failed, as always it does.

That the lenders are now requiring that borrowers actually qualify as good risks for paying back the loans is a sign of returning to good business practices, a free market characteristic if ever I saw one.

ob1kanobee 08-08-2009 07:02 PM

I believe I made my point and you can't argue with the Bible and my point being is that people pick and chose what they want out of the good book and when it goes contrary to what is being debated they throw a noose around it and turn their back towards what it says.

When the day comes at least I can stand before the creator and say I never did that (don't know if it will help me much or not but I'll make sure to remind him). I guess the Lord's Prayer is only in the many Bibles I have read and I guess those other scriptures are only in the bibles I have read.

It is a sad day when people say they believe in the bible but shun it when really it plays a part in the grand scheme of things and say it belongs somewhere else. Where would that be, in the trash can I suppose since it isn't relvent.

That being said can you show/cite me a civilization or society where man has been able to govern themselves without greed? Can you think it can be achieved by us humans?

Even Dan has somewhat admitted with a true free market utopia you are never gonna take out the greed factor. He said it was human nature. It wasn't always human nature but I won't go their out of respect for you and how the book isn't good enough for this thread.

I sometimes have to have someone remind me not to talk about the Bible because they don't know too much about it and it is tabu. I don't know too much about the constitution or true free market but at least I'm not some Bible thumper sticking his head in the sand and I listen and respond in my own way.

i mean really, how many times have i posted on this forum and how many times have I even brought up the Bible. Let's see 1,103 times. I have mentioned at most 10 times including this thread. I guess 1% is too much??????

ob1kanobee 08-08-2009 07:43 PM

Post was doubled.

hey if I'm a little high strung tonight, forgive me. Tomorrow is my birthday and I'm trying to be happy about it. I say that CX is one smart fella along with a bunch of others on here and I truly mean that. It is not me being a smarty pants. It is genuine. In conversation with people sometimes they will be like how did you know that or how did you hear about that and I say "the tile forum".

CX, I don't like those other forums. This is the best one out there plus I wouldn't get to chat with you so much.

ob1kanobee 08-08-2009 07:44 PM

This guy John Adams one of the founding fathers which I hear some talking very highly of like they had something in common with the guy or something had this to say:

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; . It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." and the result is the bible is the best book in the world 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |

I have a whole list of other quotes from these founding fathers. Guess some pick and choose what they had to say as well. Like I'm surprised. Guess they wouldn't of been hanging out with Mr. Adams or should I say Mr. Adams wouldn't of been hanging out with them.

Wait, here is one from George Washington that I have to throw in here because it is so fitting:

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without god and the Bible"

I didn't even know these quotes or beliefs of theirs existed and somehow I managed to have something in common with these guys, something very big. I think they would have liked me and possibly be proud of me, not that I really care....Guess ya learn something new everyday!

TileArt1 08-08-2009 08:00 PM


ddmoit 08-08-2009 08:05 PM

Ben, no one will stop you from talking about the Bible in the Mud Box, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it relates to this thread. First of all, we're talking about healthcare policy that can affect everyone in this country. But, not everyone in this country believes in the Bible - and those that do find plenty with which to disagree. All that said, I would expect any biblical argument on this topic to be somewhat unpersuasive.

You are more than welcome to start your own thread with a biblical focus though. If you do, I'd probably chime in.:)

EDIT: You gonna share some a that popcorn, Roger?:)

cx 08-08-2009 08:26 PM


Originally Posted by Ben
I believe I made my point and you can't argue with the Bible

And I made my point that it is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand, Ben.

Originally Posted by Ben
can you show/cite me a civilization or society where man has been able to govern themselves without greed?

No, but that's also not relevant to the discussion. Nothing at all wrong with a little greed and it's far too subjective to be done away with if there were something wrong with it.

Originally Posted by Ben
CX, I don't like those other forums. This is the best one out there plus I wouldn't get to chat with you so much.

Didn't suggest you go to another forum, Ben, I suggested other threads on this forum. Don't see one you like, you can start another as Dan suggests. :)

Now, back to health care and the politics thereof, shall we?

ob1kanobee 08-08-2009 08:53 PM

if you take healthcare and Bible and put them in the same sentence it obviously doesn't have anything to do with this thread.

At some point in time we did however start talking about free markets and pretty much how they were the answer to the current healthcare situation and current economic situation.

Then somehow the founding fathers and framing of the constitution got involved and apparently these guys had a lot of respect for the Bible, did they not? I didn't know they did till just a half hour ago.

Yes there are those that don't believe in the Bible. There are also those that don't believe in healthcare and those that don't believe in the constitution as well.

Yes too, I guess you are right about a Biblical argument to be somewhat unpe
I am starting to think that when these founding fathers drafted the constitution they looked to the Bible for advice amongst other things. I don't think all of them would frown on me for mentioning that as long as people are imperfect we will have a good share of problems in the free market.

People also don't believe in your gold standard idea either and some do. I personally flopped around on it a few times but I'm not buying into the whole gold thing as of now.

I'm pretty sure, but I don't know for a fact that the ones engaged in this debate believe in the bible. I would be surprised if CX didn't or JB. If I had to guess if anyone didn't it would be you lol but that is just a wild guess.

Threads get jacked from time to time but I in no way think this thread has been jacked by me or anyone else. We might have got a little off base and anytime the Bible comes up (and you have to agree with me here guy) this tabu thing comes up. It is not something to be ashamed of if you have a biblicalbelief or you can point out to someone something in the good book.

I have been participating in this thread almost since day one and I never brought up the Bible. But when someone suggest that human government is going to solve our problems I fall back on what I know.

In addition to those who do not believe in the Bible, Jesus said to take an advantage to share it with someone which I did in a very tiny way. I didn't even quote the scriptures because like I said, I am not a Bible thumper.

Do I want to start a thread about the Bible, no not really. Like CX said there are plenty of other places to do so and I don't think he wants it on here Mud Box or not.

Yes you are right, a biblical argument can be somewhat unpersuasive but the heroes of some on the forum apparently didn't think so such as the founding fathers. It is almost like a slap in the face to them. I could be wrong because I never had the opporatunity to meet them, I'm just going by some stuff i learned about them within the last two hours.

On top of that Jesus didn't go around just giving a witness (which was not my intent) to those that believed in the Bible he did so mainly to those who new nothing of it or what eventually became the bible I should say.

Now I have personally asked people if they feel that man can govern this earth and I have never had one person say yes and I have asked a lot. Some of these believed in the bible and some didn't some were on the fence about it. What does the bible have to do with health care? Well for one it says one day we won't need healthcare. It also says that why we are alive and need it it is up to us to take care of our families and if buying healthcare is a second priority behind cable TV, video games, and that sort of stuff then we are not taking care of family priorities.

ddmoit 08-09-2009 04:50 AM

Here's a guy who offers some specifics on what the government can do to get out of the way of the free market:


jjwq8 08-09-2009 05:09 AM

Nice ideas on paper. Don't hold your breath however.
If you have Obama's email send it to him. Just the kind of thing the lobbyists love. KACHING!

John Bridge 08-09-2009 08:19 AM


Please . . . start a Bible thread separate from this one. A bunch of people will join in. I'm not sure you'll like the result, though.

Leave this thread to the discussion of insurance and healthcare. :)

cx 08-09-2009 08:41 AM

Wish them good anarchists would git good editors, Dan. :D

I think you can boil the whole debate down a good deal by simply pointing out that if there exists in our country sufficient resources for the federal and state governments to provide health care and health care insurance for every person living here, there exists far more than adequate resources for every person living here to provide such services for hisownself if all the bureaucracy and government waste (was that oxymoronic?) were removed. And have money left over. Perhaps a lot of money left over.

The government is the problem, not the solution.

sandbagger 08-09-2009 11:07 AM


Originally Posted by Ben
The regulation that they use sometimes causes certain financial institutions to look for loopholes or do things they shouldn't be doing.

The accountants and lawyers are always one step ahead of the politicians. Remember when Clinton removed the corporate tax deduction on any salary over $1 million? The accountants came up with stock options. That worked, eh?

Fannie and Freddy are still around same as before. Why aren't these loans being made?
careful what you ask for. The systemic problems in the regulations that got us there have not changed. CRA is alive and well. Harry Reid was even quoted recently as complaining that banks were not lending to low-income borrowers.

My point is not to get off the healthcare track, but simply to provide some painful reminders for consideration of how well the government has done in aspects of our lives it has meddled in. You hire a contractor based on his/her track record. Why would you treat Big Brother any differently? :shrug:

Davestone 08-10-2009 07:43 PM

I see this snowballing if Obama sends in his Acorn and other brown shirt goons.

sandbagger 08-12-2009 09:53 PM

the Biden effect?
the hits just keep on comin'......

Obama was in Maine this week when he told his audience

"Well, first of all, another myth that we've been hearing about is this notion that somehow we're going to be cutting your Medicare benefits. We are not. AARP would not be endorsing a bill if it was undermining Medicare, okay? So I just want seniors to be clear about this, because if you look at the polling, it turns out seniors are the ones who are most worried about health care reform."
"We have the AARP on board because they know this is a good deal for our seniors."


AARP to Obama: “While the president was correct that AARP will not endorse a healthcare reform bill that would reduce Medicare benefits, indications that we have endorsed any of the major healthcare reform bills currently under consideration in Congress are inaccurate.”
The Teleprompter is in big trouble. :yeah:

Dave Taylor 08-13-2009 03:23 AM

1 Attachment(s)

ddmoit 08-13-2009 02:58 PM

Uh oh....



A memo obtained by the Huffington Post confirms that the White House and the pharmaceutical lobby secretly agreed to precisely the sort of wide-ranging deal that both parties have been denying over the past week.

Davestone 08-13-2009 08:13 PM

More pocket pilfering lokks like.Did Obama really say this?
“If you think about it, UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. It’s the Post Office that’s always having problems.”

ddmoit 08-14-2009 10:50 AM

How Medical Boards Nationalized Health Care
A relatively long read - but a lot shorter than the proposed health care bill...



Besides paying some of the highest prices for health care, we have the dubious distinction of having the most heavily regulated healthcare system in the world. In no other country on earth are doctors and hospitals subjected to as many oversight and enforcement agencies, bureaus and commissions. Rules, regulations, and laws are duplicated, redundant, multiplied, magnified, and contradictory. Laws and regulations covering doctors and hospitals plus all the other parts of our healthcare system now account for over half of all the words, sentences, and paragraphs in our entire body of law.

ob1kanobee 08-14-2009 11:05 AM

I was watching Bill Maher on HBO last night (I know shame on me but I like the guy) and he had Obama's old Doc on there from when he was a senetor and he pretty much said the healthcare companies now dictate everything.

Dealing with Medicaid was easy. Healthcare companies dictate where you can have your blood tests taken to and where you can have tests done. He was going into how big a mess it is, pretty interesting guy this Doc.

Anyway, the way I see it, they are going to tax us for something whether it be another bailout or whatever, it mine as well be healthcare because they are itching to do something up there in D.C.

I mine as well get something for my money because if it isn't healthcare it is going to be something else..............

MudMaker 08-14-2009 12:11 PM

Ben... I worry about you sometimes....:shades:

ddmoit 08-14-2009 04:30 PM

One of the most brilliant guys you probably have never heard of weighs in on health care...


It's true that the US health-care system is a mess, but this demonstrates not market but government failure. To cure the problem requires not different or more government regulations and bureaucracies, as self-serving politicians want us to believe, but the elimination of all existing government controls.

sandbagger 08-14-2009 06:47 PM

every time I here one of these liberal clowns rant about how the "free market" doesn't work I want to throw something. :mad:

go ahead and watch Bill Maher, Ben. Just remember that you are really watching the Twilight Zone. :drool2:

ob1kanobee 08-14-2009 11:48 PM

Yeah, I watched it again tonight.

He had his panel on there and I found myself shaking my head :shake: so many times, I was like what are these people thinking!

I said to myself, I wish Art, Dan, Greg or CX could be on that panel because these guys don't know squat. I think they would of have to of strapped you to a chair, tied your hands together and taped your eyeballs open to get you to sit through that mess without throwing your shoes or something at the television :D

I know I wanted to throw a shoe or two......................

Bill is just somebody I would want to party with or put into a room with a handful of you guys and watch some crazy stuff go down.

He came down on Obama a few weeks ago and received some boo's from the audience.

Crestone Tile 08-15-2009 07:02 AM

... or you can get spoon fed one-liner hate bytes from the Fright Wing Media on Fox News. Catch Glenn Beck while he still has a couple of sponsors.

Bill Maher has a lot of good guest from all over the political spectrum. Some weeks are poor, some are really, really good.

PS ... Glenn Beck fake cried again.

sandbagger 08-15-2009 09:00 AM

do you have a specific point you'd like to discuss, Matt? or are you just becoming one of the LadyG drive-by crew? :shrug:

you seem to be so well-informed about the "hate speech" from the right, how about some specifics? How do you feel about Ed Schultz's rant claiming right-wingers want the Prez shot?

"Sometimes I think they want Obama to get shot. I do. I really think that there are conservative broadcasters in this country who would love to see Obama taken out."
It seems to me your side is sure throwing around a lot of pretty wild claims about the right. Schultz makes Beck look like a rank amateur. And don't get me started on Olberman. Hate speech? The Left owns the copyright on that book. :stick:

MudMaker 08-15-2009 09:09 PM


Originally Posted by Matt
Catch Glenn Beck while he still has a couple of sponsors.

It appears that the group Color of Change, founded by Van Jones an Obama czar may be behind the boycott.
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree... Find a group that is being ostracized by the lefties and low and behold Obama is not far from view...

They even have the whole Arm Band thingy workin for em... Sieg Heil Change!!

Davestone 08-16-2009 03:05 PM

It looks like they'll change the name of the health care bill and try some more,same 1000 pages,i guess they think we're stupid......naaaawww!

MudMaker 08-16-2009 07:08 PM

Hummmmmmm.. Seems like the Single Payer Plan is off the table.. I wonder why they took it off the table????
Could it be that it was not palatable for the masses?? :suspect:
Lets see what happens now.. Let the games begin...

HS345 08-16-2009 07:36 PM

"Public option" or no, I don't trust 'em. I say trash the entire 1000+ page monstrosity. :mad:

MudMaker 08-16-2009 08:15 PM

I wonder if they are gonna go back to callin it "Health Care Reform" - again.. :confused:

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