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goddi
09-15-2007, 11:14 AM
I have looked at many comments about using premixed thinset for shower walls. The comments seem to be all negative for the reason that it takes too long to dry. My contractor is using the Tile Perfect Premix Thinset (on durock) and swears it is OK, even though I have mentioned my concerns that have been stated in this Forum. I was about to have him take them down and redo them with latex modified thinset (power with water), if that is correct.
So my question is, will it be OK to use this premix thinset if the only question is the drying time before grouting? Is 3 days enough??? A week...? How do I tell? Or....do I have to tear out the tiles and redo them with the latex modified thinset??? I don't have to rush the grouting. I can wait. I waiting the only problem???
Thanks... much frazzeled... Gary

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ddmoit
09-15-2007, 11:19 AM
Gary,

Is this (http://www1.epinions.com/pr-Glue_Adhesives-Tile_Perfect_All_In_One_Premixed_Adhesive_And_Grout) the stuff you're talking about?

ihscout54
09-15-2007, 11:24 AM
Heres my experiance with that stuff
http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=52320
-Sam

goddi
09-15-2007, 11:26 AM
No, it says White Premix Thinset, Tile Perfect, For Marble, Granite, Porecelin and Ceramic Tile...in a white bucket with blue and yellow text...Gary

Trask
09-15-2007, 11:26 AM
Gary,

Hate to break it to you, but I would never use Mastic in a wet area under any circumstance. ( if it's pre-mixed anything it's mastic)It's just gonna fail...You can always beat the odds for awhile and I've seen plenty that have, But it's not a long term product or proposition.

Do some searching here on the site..Mastic is really bad news in showers. I honestly believe it would be far easier to address the issue now rather than later..when it's a "full suit" tear-out moldy bio-hazard mess.( and that's really what they can turn into)

Have a sit down with your tile guy :nod: and rethink this.

goddi
09-15-2007, 11:45 AM
Trask...
"Hate to break it to you, but I would never use Mastic in a wet area under any circumstance. ( if it's pre-mixed anything it's mastic)...."

The contractor says it is NOT mastic.... But it does not say 'mortar' either. I am very concerned and confused. He has used it in 100's of showers, he said. Then is the ONLY solution, tear if off and redo the tile (only in the shower area?) ??? We are using sanded grout, if that helps???
Gary

ddmoit
09-15-2007, 11:56 AM
Gary, it doesn't matter what you guy calls it. It's not good to use in a wet area. Only a portland cement based product should be used to set tiles in a wet area, and there's no such thing as a pre-mixed portland cement based product.

Scottish Tile and Stone
09-15-2007, 11:56 AM
Gary, there is no such thing as pre-mixed thinset..

Jaz
09-15-2007, 11:57 AM
If your contractor says it's not mastic, then what is it? It certainly isn't thinset mortar.

Is your contractor a tilesetter? Is he licensed?

Jaz

Scottish Tile and Stone
09-15-2007, 11:58 AM
And lets not forget.. Lets say you gave it a week to dry, then grout. Everything appears to be fine.. A few weeks or months go by, and unknowing to you,a bit of water starts to get between the tile and "pre-mix". Next thing you know, the premix is re-emulsifying, and falling off the wall.

goddi
09-15-2007, 12:01 PM
Oh boy, what a mess. So what is the best way to remove and clean the tiles? Will rinsing/wiping of with water do the trick? What about the durock? Just scrape off the 'mastic'???????????????
Will the stuff clog my drains? Have to do it outside I guess???
Gary

ddmoit
09-15-2007, 12:08 PM
Warm, soapy water and a nylon bristled brush should do it. It shouldn't clog your drains like portland cement will, but why chance it?

goddi
09-15-2007, 12:12 PM
Ok... I pulled the plug on the 'premixed thinset'. They are pulling off the tile and scrapping the stuff off the back of the tiles and the durock. Is there anything I have to do that I need to do???? My brain is not working well at this moment so any advice from the point on, please give it. Like...wait for the old stuff to dry a bit or wash off with water or.... duno... thanks Gary

PS Will the residue of the 'premix' cause problems if he immediately starts to use the real thinset to reset the tiles???

PPS They are just scraping off the premix from the wall and the back of the tiles and now reapplying the tiles with the correct thinset. OK?????????
Gary

Davy
09-15-2007, 12:21 PM
Hi Gary, you're getting sound information here. Trask brought up the mold issue. A portland cement product like thinset will breathe. Mastic is an organic product and will not breathe. Once moisture gets behind the tile, and it will, that's when the mastic will emulsify and won't dry out and then the mold becomes a problem.

Davy
09-15-2007, 12:23 PM
Okay, I would scrape off as much as possible, scrub and hose them off and let them dry out. Yeah, doing it outside would be best.

goddi
09-15-2007, 12:28 PM
What is the results if they are just scraped off...with a thin film of premix left. Then reapplied?
Gary

Davy
09-15-2007, 12:34 PM
Gary, I'd want all that stuff off that will come off. I might would even lay them in the grass and use a water hose or even better would be a pressure washer if you have one. I want the thinset to stick to the tile, not the layer of mastic.

ihscout54
09-15-2007, 12:54 PM
I soaked mine for about 30 mins or so and then scrubbed them, there were only a few tiles i coulnt get clean, and I replaced them, a few remnants here and there and i see no reason that a few specs would make any difference. That stuff came of the backer much easier.
-Sam

goddi
09-15-2007, 01:06 PM
Thanks all for all of your help. At this point, all was scraped off the wall and tiles as much as it could be. I know it should have been washed off and dried...but at this point the scrapping has to do. It was very fresh and most all came off. Other issues entered into the mix (sudden bad news from a family member) so my priorities just shifted in seconds. This will be 'good enough' and in the other bath, it will be done correctly from the start. Learn something every day!!!
Glad to have had your advise. Thanks All Gary

Trask
09-15-2007, 02:44 PM
Nice to hear the shower is turning around Gary.It can be frustrating but in the long run you certainly won't regret doing it right.

Best wishes with all your other affairs.

keep us posted if you can and feel free to continue asking questions. :goodluck:

goddi
09-15-2007, 04:22 PM
Trask...
It always amazes me that I can find out that a person in the business is doing something incorrectly in just a few minutes just by talking to people like you in these Forums. Something went off in my head while they were putting up the tile--don't know exactly what. Maybe it was a comment I had previously breezed through on this Forum. Then I saw 'premixed' on the tub of thinset. Bells went off. I am also amazed that a contractor sticks by the phrase..."I've done it 100's of times...no problem." Well, if a tile installer caused a problem that I found out years later, I certainly would not call him back to fix it. So he never finds out and he does not educate himself, apparently, on what is going on currently in his trade. All he has to do is read this Forum... Thanks... Gary

ihscout54
09-15-2007, 06:24 PM
On the back of that bucket I seem to remember it clearly stating it couldnt be used for that purpose. "light moisture only not for pools showers or any outdoor use..." or somehting, his work may have or may have not lasted, but its kinda odd that he doesnt resurch his product a little. If I was a pro and i had read that I might have been inclined to avoid this product.
-Sam

Chad Deiter Company
09-15-2007, 07:11 PM
I think most of us rely on repeat customers . It doesn't sound like this is one of his priorities. Just want's to get this job done for the cheapest he can and move on to the next one. People like this are bad for you, but good for those of us who have pride in there craft and are making things built to last. :corn:

Chad Deiter Company
09-15-2007, 08:28 PM
I don't see how tiles falling off is possible . Mastic will never dry as fast as any thinset. :tup2:

Billybing
09-15-2007, 08:43 PM
If you are going through this much trouble of a full tear out you should do it proper this time and install schluter kedi with a modified thin set then installing the tile on the kerdi with the same thinset, then you know you will have no problems with water leaving nice grout joints for years, and a shower that will go for decades

sandbagger
09-16-2007, 12:59 AM
just make sure it's UNmodified between Kerdi and tile. :nod:

Marge
09-18-2007, 08:11 AM
Gary, do you know if they installed a barrier behind the Durock for moisture?

Billybing
09-18-2007, 08:30 PM
Sandbagger,i believe you can use modified on top and bottom it is just the ditra that you use the unmodified on top,someone correct me if im wrong.

Splinter
09-18-2007, 08:41 PM
Billy, Kerdi is an impervious membrane, so an UNmodified mortar is recommended between kerdi and tile.

I dont think Kerdi is in the cards for this homeowner on this project though...

cx
09-18-2007, 08:45 PM
Let's not to be confusing the issue of thinset types recommended by Schluter for use with their membranes.

You want a dry-set (UN-modified) mortar on both sides of the membrane with the exception of sometimes wanting a modified under the Ditra. The determining factor there is the substrate. For wood floors, you need the modified (A118.11), and there may be times you'd want it for other substrates.

But think UN-modified for both sides for all Kerdi applications and the top of Ditra, and occasionally modified under the Ditra.

There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but they are very few here.

My opinion; worth price charged.

goddi
09-21-2007, 03:40 PM
Well, here is the latest in my saga with the premix thinset issue. After telling him to replace the tiles using powder-based thinset, and not being satisfied with what happened, I fired him. I then removed all the tile and Durock in the bathroom walls. He had only scraped off the premix thinset and then applied the powder-based thinset. So, he left a reside of the premix on the tiles and the Durock so, at least, the tiles came off with some ease. And I found out he did not even do this fix to all the tiles. The base of the niche was slanted to the rear and would be a collector of water. Under this tile in the niche, the premix thinset that was left was just a glob of mush...not even close to being dry after 5 days. I also found out that he had not set the Swanstone shower pan in a bed of mortar. He injected a can of insulation foam instead! Grout lines were flacky and, on and on.... Nor did he tape the joints of the Durock.
I have a reputable company coming in on Monday who only does bathrooms and will pick up the job and finish the 3.5 bathrooms. Gary :bonk:

Lazarus
09-21-2007, 03:55 PM
Glad to see you found the greatest tile forum around. While it probably hasn't been easy for you, sleep well, confident in the knowledge that THIS INSTALLATION will stand the test of time and never let you down.