Jubilee's kitchen GC wants AcrylPro on durock [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

PDA

View Full Version : Jubilee's kitchen GC wants AcrylPro on durock


jubileej
03-07-2007, 11:05 AM
My contractor has glued and is nailing (1 1/2" galvanized) 1/2" Durock to my 1 1/4" plywood subfloor. The foreman and GC insist that AcrylPro is the product of choice, that Portland cement thinset would be too weighty and noisy in this application, which is over a large basement area. The kitchen is 18 x 23.

They firmly believe that the AcrylPro grabs well, and be flexible for floor or house movement and softer to walk on, and reduce noise. They plan to pick up the AcrylPro tonight and apply it tomorrow!

Should I insist they use something else? What about the issues they want to address? When I spoke to them about it, they said they would use the cement on the seams to reassure me.

(By the way, a structural engineer has approved the well support sistered 12 on center joists below. - But it is a large span.)

Sponsored Links


ddmoit
03-07-2007, 11:14 AM
Whoah! They're gluing the Durock down? That's your first problem. It's supposed to be put down over a layer of thinset. The purpose of the thinset is not so much for bonding, but to eliminate any voids between the Durock and the plywood that would allow for tile movement later. The glue is not eliminating voids - it's probably causing additional voids. :eek:

EDIT: I just looked at the installation guide for Durock. I wish it was more clear about the thinset:

http://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/Documents/Installation_and_Appl_Guides/DrckCement_Board-Installation_Guide.pdf

Scottish Tile and Stone
03-07-2007, 11:24 AM
DO NOT USE MASTIC...............

We cant stress this enough around here.

Your first red flag should be " the said acrylpro was SOFTER to walk on"... Not sure how mastic would make tile softer. Thinset doesnt make any noise when walked on. If they insist on using mastic, get it in writing that they will come back very soon to re-do the whole job at their cost..

Tell them they must use thinset to secure the cement board, not glue. The thinset isnt to bond the CBU but to fill in any voids.

Scottish Tile and Stone
03-07-2007, 11:25 AM
If they are going to use thinset on the seams, wouldnt that make it too noisy as well? I think I would be looking for another tile guy..

sandbagger
03-07-2007, 10:00 PM
I think I would be looking for another tile guy.. you give these guys too much credit, Scott - it is obvious they are NOT "tile guys!" :eek:

As for the "softer" thing. It will be soft alright. plenty soft prolly for several weeks while the mastic tries to dry. and while the tile is moving to a new location every time someone walks on it.

did you actually plan to USE this kitchen, jubilee?

BigCraig
03-07-2007, 10:04 PM
Tell them they are FIRED, mastic WILL fail, my entire 600 sq ft FAILED with AcrylPro we just settled out of court with them and got the check the other day. :goodluck:

jubileej
03-08-2007, 04:30 AM
DD, I could have sworn I saw a diagram today that illustrated that on the Durock, the smooth side has mastic applied while the rough side uses thin set, but I cannot find it now.

What kind of thinset do you recommend? One with the latex additive?

Thanks

ddmoit
03-08-2007, 05:41 AM
Between the Durock and the subfloor, use an unmodified thinset. Nothing fancy, just something that will cure without air.

jubileej
03-08-2007, 10:42 AM
Whatever they used between subfloor and Durock it is too late now, they have super nailed it with the hot dipped galvanized - a half day's work. But what should they use for between the durock and tile? Thinset with latex in the dry mix?

And is there any kind of product to make the tile impact less jarring?

Thanks!

ddmoit
03-08-2007, 10:48 AM
I hope someone with more experience than me weighs in on this thread, but given the way the Durock was attached, it may not matter how you do things afterward. :(

How was the Durock glued down? Did they use caulk guns, or did they trowel something on?

Scottish Tile and Stone
03-08-2007, 01:19 PM
Im not sure what you mean by " tile impact less jarring".?

Scottish Tile and Stone
03-08-2007, 01:20 PM
It doesnt matter if they super nailed it or not and took a week doing it. If they didnt install it correctly, then it comes out. Their dime.

cx
03-08-2007, 05:39 PM
Oh, dear. Are these the same fellas that were/are doing your bathroom with the accessible shower, Julie?

I'm thinking they need to at least be doing a little more research on some of the necessary materials and methods on some of this work, as you are trying to do. Some of what they're telling you just doesn't compute, I'm afraid.


And the last I saw of your bath thread you were fixin' to gather some information on what they wanted to do there, but never saw what you came up with. How'd that go?

My opinion; worth price charged.

jubileej
03-09-2007, 01:22 AM
CX,

Howdy, I've just seem to never be able to carve out the time to 1) find digital camera or connector for photo cell phone and 2) figure out how to transfer pix to Photobucket. Cause I would love to send along pix of the process in the handicapped bathroom - thanks for remembering! It looks good, at this point, but it did take a while to cure, though my foreman did use cement for theat job, and not the mastic.

At any rate, in trying to find out where I had read about the smooth side of Durock being for mastic (or if I had misremembered) - I came upon some archival commentary on this forum, interestingly enough - you have actually commented with interest on this back in Sept of 2004 (9-14-04). I'll have to ask them tomorrow what kind of trowel my carpenter used to spread "the glue" on the downside.

Another interesting/confusing point is that the instruction manual for the durock goes vague on us on the point of topside adhesive. (see usg.com site), so I can't very well shove it under my carpenter's nose. He is very proud of jobs performed 5 and 10 years ago using the Acryl Pro - however, I insisted and purchased for them 8 bags of Hydroment singleflex thinset, recommended by the tile store.

He plans to tile the perimeter tomorrow, buttering each tile back completely. Any and all advice appreciated! Also, can thinset be "worked" to various thicknesses as needed to accommodate height near adjoining surfaces? I know that's what he plans to do.

Jubilee

Tool Guy - Kg
03-09-2007, 01:31 AM
Whatever they used between subfloor and Durock it is too late now...So this is for sure mastic, or something out of a caulk gun, or........... :shrug:

sandbagger
03-09-2007, 01:47 AM
Another interesting/confusing point is that the instruction manual for the durock goes vague on us on the point of topside adhesive. That's because there's no simple - or single - answer, Jubilee. At least as far as USG is concerned. But lots of folks here will tell you that it's hard to go wrong with Versabond on the topside for just about everything.

Truth is there are applications where mastic is perfectly acceptable on the topside. But lots where it isn't. Like floors. :shake:

cx
03-09-2007, 09:58 AM
At any rate, in trying to find out where I had read about the smooth side of Durock being for mastic (or if I had misremembered) - I came upon some archival commentary on this forum, interestingly enough - you have actually commented with interest on this back in Sept of 2004 (9-14-04). I'll have to ask them tomorrow what kind of trowel my carpenter used to spread "the glue" on the downside.You'd hafta gimme a link to that commentary, Jubilee. I've got a few hundred pages of posts out there and I don't know how to search by date, I'm afraid.

As has been pointed out, the Durock people don't make it easy to decide on the correct method to install their product. I can't fault your contractor for using the mastic under the board if he followed the directions on their site. I don't honestly know if USG really means for people to install that board on floors using mastic, but I can make the directions say that. There are some notes in there that should alert a professional, though, such as:
Adhesives, Mortars, Grouts
Check your local tile distributor for
the products available and which
ones are appropriate for your job.NOTE: Use latex-fortified portland cement
mortar for wall shield and floor protector
applications.On the smooth side/textured side, there are applications (walls in dry areas) where you might wanna install the board with the smooth side out so you could set your tile with mastic, but that's about the only time I can think of where you'd wanna use that side for your tile. And for floor applications, even though USG speaks of "laminating" and "bonding," the primary purpose of the thinset under the boards is to fill voids and provide a 100 percent footprint for the substrate. You'll note that they require the board be installed with mechanical fasteners just like all other CBUs.
Also, can thinset be "worked" to various thicknesses as needed to accommodate height near adjoining surfaces? I know that's what he plans to do.Regular thinsets can be adjusted a little to keep the tile surface in plane, but it's not a good idea to try to correct a floor level that way. There are special "medium bed" thinsets that allow for more of that correction, but it's still a better practice to make the floor the correct height for you needs before tiling or to use a reducer to accommodate the height differences between the floor surfaces. How much is he planning to "accommodate" here?

My opinion; worth price charged.

Still curious about the bath. Stop by that thread and indicate what was actually done there if you would. Lotta lurkers will see that over the months and years and may also be curious how the situation was handled. I know you say it "looks good," but that was a situation with a lot of technical "issues" and I'm curious how he overcame them.

jubileej
03-10-2007, 11:59 AM
Well,

Found out that all that he used between the durock and subfloor was leveler. He has tiled around the perimeter of the cabinets, out 39 inches from the back window side cabinets. I can still have him do a layout we had talked about with a tile border out to where a future island will go, and wood engineered planks - the current height with glue of the laid tile is 7/16th - so he thinks that a 5/16th plank would work with glue down on the durock if I really insist.

Sorry to be so flaky on this - any advice appreciated. :dunce:

P.S. - I put more details in a post about tile and wood cuz need some real quick advice!!