ceramic tile gone bad [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile


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08-29-2001, 02:25 PM
I have a one year old house. The vinyl floor seams in the kitchen/laundry/breakfast area went bad. The flooring company agreed to replace the floor and even give me a deal on a upgrade. But when they went to put the appliances back the stove is now 3/4 of inch higher. And the cabinet above the fridge had to be taken down to be shaved to fit. The flooring company does not want to take responsibity for the stove. They treated it as a remodel job instead of a replacement. Now they refuse to raise the cabinets to make everything level again. I was wondering what went wrong here? Any help would be appreciated.

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John Bridge
08-29-2001, 04:20 PM
Hi Jason,

I've already told you in the email that the job is not satisfactory. I'll wait now for my esteemed colleagues to comment. They are probably still out working (or drinking beer). They'll be along. Hang tight.

spark chaser
08-29-2001, 05:21 PM
I am not a flooring contractor, but I do both new construction and remodel contracting. If I do work on a new construction house, and there is a problem with it in a reasonable length of time ( 12 months in writing, judgement if a little longer), I repair to make it look like it should look for new construction. Hacking and "rigging" is not allowed.

If it is an old house, and work was "remodel" work, I repair any problems to return the house to the condition it was in when the customer originaly accepted my work (wrote the check).

This is how I treat my customers, and how I want to be treated.

Okay, let's hear from the tile guys....


Bud Cline
08-29-2001, 05:38 PM
They must of done an overlay. I wouldn't hesitate letting the judge decide this one, and don't waste no time either. This contractor apparently took the path of least resistance a second time if it is the same guy.

And you know what else? I'd be investigating the true value of that so called "upgrade" you so willingly paid for. I think you been had brother/sister.

08-29-2001, 06:44 PM
DEAL?!?! I would have said."The "DEAL" is you're gonna fix this crap or pay somebody else to do it!!! The "UPGRADE" should have been to put it right.There is no doubt an overlay was done.Bud hit the nail on the head there.

When I got done with them(my sister works for a big law firm)I'd have a new floor and the money for the "upgrade" would be in my bank account!!

Man!!! Stuff like that makes me mad!

Rob Z
08-29-2001, 09:04 PM

Without seeing the language in the proposal, it's hard to know what they did or provided.

But one thing that is absolutely necessary, in my opinion, for a remodeling contractor or tile contractor to do is forecast the implications of the work and communicate to the homeowner in advance.

If floor elevations are going to change, then they should have told you at the start so you could make some choices. This is not the first time that a new floor has affected cabinets, appliances, or transitions to other areas of the house.

Maybe you could post for us to read what they provided for you , in writing, about the work that was done?

I would ask the flooring company to clarify what bearing on any of this there was from the statement "they treated it as a remodel job instead of a replacement".

Bud Cline
08-29-2001, 09:45 PM

Here's something else you might want to check out.

Do you have a dishwasher?

If so, you should check to see that it can eventually be removed for replacement in future years. Does the new floor run under the dishwasher or just up to it?

08-31-2001, 11:07 AM
I was wondering what went wrong here?

Rob is much more eloquent than me, I was going to post a one word answer-communication

08-31-2001, 02:44 PM
raise hell...tell the builder you want it fixed...period....or you will get a lawyer...

Rob Z
08-31-2001, 04:33 PM
Jim "Brevity" Buckley!

08-31-2001, 05:14 PM
Knock it off, Rob!! I'm just getting used to da leveler.

John Bridge
08-31-2001, 05:41 PM
Yeah, watch it. Brevity is starting to sound really good, especially around this place. [Now Patti, I know I talk as much or more than the others, but you don't have to say it.]

Rob Z
08-31-2001, 06:30 PM

Ignore this side chatter!


We could start combining the two, and you'd be known as "da Breveler".


09-01-2001, 08:23 AM
Sorry Bruha, this is my last non topic related post here.

Rob, at some point this weekend I will attack you in the MudBox, be warned!

Rob Z
09-01-2001, 08:57 AM

Whaddya gone do, make a Roman catapult to throw bags of SLC at me?

I can deflect all that and more with my steel trowel.

Hey, careful what you do over in the Mud Box. Bud maintains a high level of decorum there.

What about my idea of the "Mud Puddle" forum over at your SLC website? I'd come over and visit if that was there. Watch out, cos I'd bring friends.


09-05-2001, 09:36 AM
The floor raised because they went over the vinyl plus luan. They laid 5/16 durock over the vinyl and then proceeded with laying the floor. They never came out and measured to make sure that when they laid the new floor that all the appliances would fit back. They told me it would be a replacement. Should they not have gone over the vinyl. Please tell me what they should have done? I am little confused on what should have happened when we chose ceramic tile.

Bud Cline
09-05-2001, 10:02 AM

Technically.....the first floor (vinyl and underlayment) should have been removed in my opinion.

I can't imagine what you have there. If you now have two underlayments and two vinyls then you are raised (I assume) about 5/8" to 3/4" above your homes original subfloor.

If you were to start with your original subfloor and add 1/2" cement board and 5/16" ceramic tile with two applications of thinset then you would be raising your floor about 3/4" to 7/8" above your homes original subfloor.

Basically it's the same difference I think.

This is done all the time with tile installations without any major problems with clearences. There is some adjustment in the front legs of a dishwasher that will still allow the dishwasher to be removed if not tiled under, but it is very close.

If the floor under the dishwasher is tiled then the heighth of the dishwasher is reduced by adjusting the legs and everything still fits.

My next question now is: are the upper cabinets installed at the proper height? A misjudgement at cabinet installation time could be a fiasco. I'm not sure what the height requirement (rule of thumb) is for cabinets above a refrigerator pocket. Now I'm curious as to whether or not your cabinets go up to your ceiling? Do you have "soffits" (or as they say in Texas "fir downs")?

There are some factors here that are very difficult to see and determine over the internet.

Any cabinet seller can give you the specifications. Any appliance dealer can provide you with specifications. Any reputable homebuilder (other than yours) can help with the recommended specifications.

No matter what; it looks like there is an error, (obviously), and your builder is not likely to want to "take it on the chin" for his mistakes.

Do some homework so you know what your talking about and then be forceful if need be.

09-05-2001, 11:55 AM
I have the subfloor which i think is 3/4. Then I have a 1/4 piece of luan. Then the vinyl was glued to the luan. Then they put down thinset, then durock, then thinset then tile. I am learning that you need 1 1/4 substrate to lay tile right. So they added 5/16 durock to the existing vinyl with two layers of thinset and then set the tile. I agree they should have taken up the vinyl. But the biggest problem is the fact that they did not measure to make sure the appliances whould fit. I have checked the specs on the stove and the fridge. They want to try to shave 3/4 of a cabinet, but the manufacture says you can only shave 1/2. So that leaves the cabinet 1/4 above the fridge. And the fridge specs say it needs to be a 1/2. I am pretty sure where everything should be, except for the dishwasher. I have been told it will come out but putting the new one will be difficult. I will probably have to cut out the tile in front of it. Any help would be appreciate and let me know if there is something confusing still.

John Bridge
09-05-2001, 04:03 PM
Okay, let me try it this way. If you have 34-1/4 in. between the tile floor the underside of the counter overhang, the dishwasher will come out, and a new one could be installed. In some instances we have removed entirely the front legs of the machine. That gives you about a quarter inch.

You say you will have 1/4 in. above the fridge? What's wrong with that?

Rob Z
09-05-2001, 08:37 PM

Where is the verbage that you emailed to me? Let's start out with that.


09-05-2001, 08:37 PM
I have 33 1/4 from the edge of the tile up towards the countertop. Then the floor drops 3/4. So I guess will have trouble getting the dishwasher out eventually. The fridge specs say you need a 1/2 inch above to provide proper ventilation and 2 inches on the sides also for ventilation.

09-05-2001, 08:48 PM
We hereby propose to furnish the materials and perform the labor necessary for the completion of wall to wall carpet, sheet vinyl, ceramic, or hardwood located at: the above address.

Price does not include cutting doors, installation of pad, underlayment, etc., removal or haul away of existing flooring, major appliances, or bathroom fixtures unless otherwise specified in this contract.

They wrote down that in the blank area:
Marazzi Tile color altamira(white) installed in Kitchen, breakfast room, and laundry room over 26 sheets of 1/4 underlayment durarock. Install 3/8 gad saluters at carpet area. Installer will move and replace washer, dryer, and refrigerator. grout color to be bonzal french mocha and sanded.
The terms of payment were half now and the rest at the time of install

All material is guaranteed to be as specified, and the above work to be performed in accordance with the standard practices and procedures of the industry, it being understood that the terms and conditions as set forth on the back hereof are part of this contract and are agreed to between the parties hereto.

John Bridge
09-06-2001, 05:18 PM
You need a lawyer, amigo. One thing, there is a term in the construction industry called "a workmanlike manner." You can expect that all work will be performed that way whether it's in the contract or not. It simply means that professionals are supposed to be "professional."

Get an attorney.

Rob Z
09-06-2001, 05:21 PM

As I said in the e mail, I think one plan of attack is that they installed the DUROCK not in accordance with MFR directions.

I think these guys are butchers. As John said, get an attorney and let him/her deal with these hacks on your behalf.

Good luck,